|
Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:38:41 GMT 10
From Kuya Banshik and ruth
Satan was originally a created angel who refused to submit to God's authority and attempted to overthrow God as King of the Universe. In rebelling against the authority of God, the devil became a completely evil being and sin came into the world. Many other angels joined the devil in rebellion against God and became evil spirits.
kuya B...ayan si Satan INTRINSICALLY EVIL...
Hi Ruth,
Pagka sinabi nating intrinsically evil, ginawa ang isang nilalang na evil from the very start.
We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate.
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:41:09 GMT 10
ayan subdivided po natin ang mga main topics although talagang hindi maiwasan na ma relate sa iba't ibang similar areas but then there are specific teachings about each discussions like doctrine of God, doctrine of Man and doctrine of angels.
|
|
|
Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 7, 2006 1:44:15 GMT 10
yan..Very good! Yung history about GOD and angels..before lucifer's fall .... Sige FIRE!
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:48:20 GMT 10
ngek fire ka dyan sis, kaw dapat mag simula ng apoy ahahaha
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:55:23 GMT 10
From Kuya banshik
We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate.
i wanted to focus first about the fall. The difference between Satan's fall and man's fall is that Satan fell without any external tempter. Sin among angels originated in their own beings. Man's sin originated in response to a tempter and temptation from without. ( external factor)
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:58:02 GMT 10
Had man fallen without a tempter, he would have originated his own sin and would have himself became a Satan. [/size]
|
|
|
Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 7, 2006 14:09:52 GMT 10
ngek fire ka dyan sis, kaw dapat mag simula ng apoy ahahaha waaaaaaaaaaa, baka umapoy na nga dahil we are talking about lucifer here, the prince of the darkness... Kuya B., support your answer.... Pagka sinabi nating intrinsically evil, ginawa ang isang nilalang na evil from the very start.
|
|
|
Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 7, 2006 19:16:10 GMT 10
Hi Linsi,
The nature of angels are different. They have a superior intellect and their will is already atuned with God.
This is the reason why Lucifer and the others were judged right away during their fall.
Hotty,
Malinaw si Lucifer ay ginawang mabuti bago ang "fall". All angels were by nature good and was created good.
The transformation from good angels into dark angels happened because they decided to disobey God.
Part of the nature of angels (unlike men) is that their nature is already atuned with God. The moment there is rejection of God, judgement and punishment is immediate.
And when we say intrinsically evil, it means from the very start of creation, this being was already created evil. Wala naman ginawang masama o evil ang Diyos.
|
|
|
Post by supremo on Jun 8, 2006 9:56:14 GMT 10
Hi Linsi, The nature of angels are different. They have a superior intellect and their will is already atuned with God. This is the reason why Lucifer and the others were judged right away during their fall. Hotty, Malinaw si Lucifer ay ginawang mabuti bago ang "fall". All angels were by nature good and was created good. The transformation from good angels into dark angels happened because they decided to disobey God. Part of the nature of angels (unlike men) is that their nature is already atuned with God. The moment there is rejection of God, judgement and punishment is immediate. And when we say intrinsically evil, it means from the very start of creation, this being was already created evil. Wala naman ginawang masama o evil ang Diyos. I will agree with bangzhik. Every creation of God is good. (see Genesis account of creation and take note of the phrase ".....and it was good") Now, the common thing about the two created beings (men and angels) is the term "free will". Both have free will!! Both have power to choose evil or good, obey or disobey etc. Now, we can't blame God coz he gave us "free will", coz this is his very essence as God...He is a God of love..suppressing free will to his creation will disqualify Him as God of love.
|
|
|
Post by supremo on Jun 8, 2006 10:31:53 GMT 10
Ezekiel 28:11-19:
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. [b]Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created[/b], [/color]till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
|
|
|
Post by peng on Jun 9, 2006 13:49:44 GMT 10
Had man fallen without a tempter, he would have originated his own sin and would have himself became a Satan.
[/size] [/quote] Ang lalim yata.
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:50:23 GMT 10
Had man fallen without a tempter, he would have originated his own sin and would have himself became a Satan.
[/size] [/quote] Ang lalim yata.[/quote] Linsi, I think it was not question of whether there was a tempter or not..rather it was FREE WILL God gave the angels free will when they were created...they were given a choice Satan chose to rebel and deceive other angels when other angels FELL from the glory..they were also tempted/deceived by Satan..and those angels...who became fallen angels or demons/devils...chose to rebel against God so it is not the absence or presence of a tempter...but free choice...
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:52:21 GMT 10
kuya B:
Satan knew God in all His glory. For Satan and the other angels to rebel despite what they knew about God, it is the utmost of evil. This likely results in God not giving Satan and the other fallen angels the opportunity to repent.
but for fallen MAN...sinful but not EVIL man...there is a chance to repent....
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 23:05:44 GMT 10
for the FALLEN MAN...God sent a redeemer to defeat Satan and wash our sins
but God did not send a redeemer for the FALLEN ANGELS (anyway, I doubt if they will repent even if God asks them to)...
and in the Book of Revelations..it was mentioned that Christ will finally defeat Satan by sending him to a lake of fire....
but then again ...there are good angels...and this angels will remain good...di na sila magdi-disobey pa kay God...I think God only gave the angels one chance to obey or not...so those who remained with God ay di na matempt pa ni Satan.
when God gave this angels a choice to obey or not...dun lang nagkaron ng distinction between good and evil...
those who chose to obey became good...those who chose to disobey and became evil...kasi even if they are know God thru and thru they still disobeyed...di lang yun gusto pa nila talunin ang Dyos..kaya sila EVIL
for Adam and Eve...when they chose to disobey they proved to be sinful..wicked...
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 23:12:19 GMT 10
kuya B:
We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate.
ruth:
i agree..kaya ko nga sinasabi na being evil and being sinful is not the same...
when the angels disobeyed...they proved to be evil
when man disobeyed...they proved to be sinful... kaya nga human nature is sinful (before or after the fall lang ang medyo naguguluhan ako)...
whereas demons have evil nature...
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 23:16:08 GMT 10
From Kuya banshik We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate.
i wanted to focus first about the fall. The difference between Satan's fall and man's fall is that Satan fell without any external tempter. Sin among angels originated in their own beings. Man's sin originated in response to a tempter and temptation from without. ( external factor)
waaa linsi...ayan sinasabi ko na we tend to blame external factors for being sinful... yes, Satan chose to disobey w/o an external factor...but the fallen angels (the less powerful angels) were also deceived by Satan...so may temptation din... kaya sinasabi ko na hindi basehan ang temptation...rather it was a CHOICE..
|
|
|
Post by supremo on Jun 10, 2006 8:50:18 GMT 10
From Kuya banshik We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate.
i wanted to focus first about the fall. The difference between Satan's fall and man's fall is that Satan fell without any external tempter. Sin among angels originated in their own beings. Man's sin originated in response to a tempter and temptation from without. ( external factor)
waaa linsi...ayan sinasabi ko na we tend to blame external factors for being sinful... yes, Satan chose to disobey w/o an external factor...but the fallen angels (the less powerful angels) were also deceived by Satan...so may temptation din... kaya sinasabi ko na hindi basehan ang temptation...rather it was a CHOICE.. i agree. even in our court of law, hindi hinuhusgahan ang taong naging biktima ng panloloko. Satan tricked man in the garden of eden yet God still punished man. Why?? because he chose to disobey God, by eating the forbidden fruit that He clearly stated not to eat.
|
|
|
Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 11, 2006 14:31:12 GMT 10
so convinced ka na ngayon? may holy spirit ang tao at wala ay pwede magkasala nang dahil sa free will?
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 12, 2006 15:29:01 GMT 10
Linsi,
I think it was not question of whether there was a tempter or not..rather it was FREE WILL
God gave the angels free will when they were created...they were given a choice
Satan chose to rebel and deceive other angels
when other angels FELL from the glory..they were also tempted/deceived by Satan..and those angels...who became fallen angels or demons/devils...chose to rebel against God
so it is not the absence or presence of a tempter...but free choice
But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts and enticed. Jas 1:14
ruth
i agree na ang free choice ang deciding factor pero paano mo ma e exercise ang choice mo kung walang pagpipilian po?
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 12, 2006 15:31:21 GMT 10
Linsi,
I think it was not question of whether there was a tempter or not..rather it was FREE WILL
God gave the angels free will when they were created...they were given a choice
Satan chose to rebel and deceive other angels
when other angels FELL from the glory..they were also tempted/deceived by Satan..and those angels...who became fallen angels or demons/devils...chose to rebel against God
so it is not the absence or presence of a tempter...but free choice
but ruth
no one tempted Lucifer
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 12, 2006 15:37:52 GMT 10
ruth
Si Lucifer nung magkasala siya walang tempter so so he originated his own sin thus becoming Satan..
yung mga angels iba kesa kay satan there was a presence of tempter it was Satan, and they became fallen angels as a result
Yung kay Adam at Eve kung nagkasala without a tempter they will become Satan themselves,
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 12, 2006 15:46:34 GMT 10
ruth
si Lucifer nagkasala without a tempter
si Adam nagkasala in the presence of a tempter
Pwede bang magkasala si Adam and Eve without a tempter?
Yes, it is possible at kung yun ang nangyari they will be Satan themselves.
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 12, 2006 15:49:58 GMT 10
let us have a closer look
Lucifer was a cherub and closest to the throne of God
pero nagkasala siya
Adam was also closest to God and walking with god and talking with Him in Pradise
nagkasala din
kaya tabla sila
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 12, 2006 15:52:58 GMT 10
When lucifer became satan, sa book of job, akyat baba si satan sa throne ng Lord...
|
|
|
Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 13, 2006 16:06:19 GMT 10
Hi Guys,
Pahabol dahil may free time.
We have to distinguish the nature of angels apart from man. Angels were created superior beings compared to man. It is also not proper to equate that the nature of the will and intellect of angels and man are the same. They are entirely different.
Unlike man, the angels have the superior discernment (which means they already know that is good and what is evil - no need for temptation) and their will have a special union with God.
This is the reason why judgement and punishment was immediate to angels unlike man.
FYI. There is a theory that one prinicipal reason why Lucifer and the Agnels rebelled against God is when they were able to glimpse the second person of God (Jesus being Man). Since angels deemed themselves superior than man, out of their own selfish pride - the angels could not accept that God chose the become Man. But of course this is just theory : )
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 13, 2006 20:45:39 GMT 10
ruth
si Lucifer nagkasala without a tempter
si Adam nagkasala in the presence of a tempter
Pwede bang magkasala si Adam and Eve without a tempter?
Yes, it is possible at kung yun ang nangyari they will be Satan themselves.
i totally agree...
|
|
ruth
Moderator
moderator in her designated rooms
Posts: 903
|
Post by ruth on Jun 13, 2006 20:53:31 GMT 10
Hi Guys, Pahabol dahil may free time. We have to distinguish the nature of angels apart from man. Angels were created superior beings compared to man. It is also not proper to equate that the nature of the will and intellect of angels and man are the same. They are entirely different. Unlike man, the angels have the superior discernment (which means they already know that is good and what is evil - no need for temptation) and their will have a special union with God. This is the reason why judgement and punishment was immediate to angels unlike man. FYI. There is a theory that one prinicipal reason why Lucifer and the Agnels rebelled against God is when they were able to glimpse the second person of God (Jesus being Man). Since angels deemed themselves superior than man, out of their own selfish pride - the angels could not accept that God chose the become Man. But of course this is just theory : ) kuya, 1.) di naman point of argument na ang angels were created supreme beings than MAN... ang pinaguusapan natin is pareho sila nagkasala (angels and man)..yet the angels were not given the chance to repent..whereas man was given the chance to repent.. mas matindi ang naging consequence ng pagiging disobedient ng mga angels. 2.) hmmmmm...no need for temptation ba kamo??? the angels were tempted in the same way that Jesus was tempted by Satan.. 3.) The Fall of Angels happened before the Fall of MAN....prior to Jesus going to earth as MAN.. 4.) Jesus was in the flesh, He became MAN, He was tempted by Satan too...but He did not SIN
|
|
|
Post by supremo on Jun 15, 2006 5:09:34 GMT 10
so convinced ka na ngayon? may holy spirit ang tao at wala ay pwede magkasala nang dahil sa free will? HAHAHA, nadali mo ko doon ah. Mahirap talaga ang nagpost ng puyat. Anyway, ang argument ata natin dun is whether adam and eve have the holy spirit prior to their fall and i responded na wala ata because kung meron di magkakasala ang lolo at lola natin tama ba? Yes, even if we have a holy spirit or not, man can commit sin because he is flesh kaya ibinigay ang verse na ito: Gen 6:3 "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. But still i do believe that adam and eve have no holy spirit inside them prior to their fall.
|
|
|
Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 15, 2006 14:05:46 GMT 10
Hi Ruth,
Point of clarification.
1. We have to define the nature of angels as being superior both in will and intellect to explain why the treatment/consequence of angels was different from man.
Some of the posts were comparing application of justice of both angels and man should be the same which should not be the case.
It is not that angels were "supreme beings" but they are superior in man in terms of intellect and will. Angels have immediate discernment from good and evil. Thus, repentance from their nature can never be made anymore.
2. If discernment is immediate, there is no need for temptation.
3. I do not understand your points 3 & 4. please explain
|
|
|
Post by linsi on Jun 15, 2006 14:11:35 GMT 10
hi kuya banshik
glad you have time to post , kahit marami kang concerns ngayon
my question naman
i agree that angels are superior both in will and intellect but how come they rebelled when they have known God can kill them in the second death.
|
|