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Post by linsi on Jun 5, 2006 19:35:42 GMT 10
hi ruth
ganda ng explanations sana makagawa tayo ng bukod na thread about the doctrine of man.. that man has a holy nature before the fall is supported by several factors.
1. man was created by God Gen 1:27
2. that man was created in God's image Gen 1:26 created as a personal image like God, and a moral image with conscience ( ops napasali na naman)
3. that man was created a living soul Genesis 2:7
4. that man is the result of Divine Purpose when God formed man out of the dust then breathed his divine breath
5. that man is the work of God's creative Purpose
until the first man was tested.
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 19:54:08 GMT 10
kuya,
I want to continue this discussion sana with you..kaya lang...busy talaga.
1.) sayo galing yun term na limitation....kaya sabi ko hindi nya tayo nililimatahan...hehhe
Free will as the name suggests is without limitation, He gave us a choice to be good as He intended us to be or but we choose to be a sinner (which He did not intended to us to become)...
intention = Good not intended = Sinner
eh Adam and Eve, disobeyed God..offended Him...therefore it proved mankind's nature to SIN...
as it is the snake's nature to be MEAN "sabi sa Bible, the MEANEST beast that God has created"...that means God created the MEANEST beast,....it was the snake's nature to be MEAN
as it is the nature of Man to SIN...as what the fall of eden proved...
2.) agree..Law is very necessary...for us to know that we are sinners...and we will never achieve perfection in this life...without Christ...we can never be perfect..because only Christ is pefect..
3.) exactly! yun nga sinasabi namin ni linsi at hotty...
marami pa ring disagreement between linsi, hotty, you and me...but it does not mean we cannot agree...tuloy lang po
what is the difference between a sinner and intrinsically evil? wala po ako sinabi na Man is intrinsically evil ang sabi ko Man is a sinner by nature...
to linsi and kuya B.
Sin is an offense towards God..
when Adam and EVE disobeyed the first law..they offended God..therefore eating the forbidden fruit is a SIN..
again..paano naman yun sinabi ni God before the flood..."He discovered that man is wicked and He was grieved???"
nung lang nya nadiscober na ang ginawa nyang tao ay wicked...and He was grieved...but even so He continued to love mankind...gave mankind the chance to be refined...to what He intended them to be...pure and undefiled..and to glorify Him and only Him...
kung di Nya mahal ang mankind...di na sana nya binigyan pa ng chance na may mabuhay pang tao sa mundo thru Noah...sana pinabayaan na lang din Nya ito mamatay..
despite the nature of man to SIN...He still gave us a chance to renew ourselves...(as depicted by the regeneration of mankind thru Noah)...
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 19:54:52 GMT 10
eto po nasa Genesis 6 and kwento ng Great Flood..
wala pang 10 commandments nito, wala pa si Moses...despite all the grace He dispenses to mankind after the Fall of Eden, they continue to be wicked...and it displeased God...
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:00:11 GMT 10
linsi,
the Lord was grieved that the man he created is wicked...
that means he did not have any inclination that the man he created before the fall is wicked...he intended man to be good...
but when the man was tested...he found man's wicked nature...man's sinful nature...
and yet di naman nya pinuksa ang buong mankind....
kung di nya mahal ang creation nya...sana nung nagkasala pa lang si adam and eve..pinatay na lang nya pareho ito
at gumawa ng bagong couple in His own image...but He did not...he still gave Adam and Eve provisions to survive outside the garden of eden
before the great flood, he was grieved of man's wickedness of man's sinful nature...but he did not destroy mankind...nagkaron pa rin ng continuation ang mankind thru Noah
kung hindi nya mahal ang creation nya...sana pinatay na lang nya lahat...he would not have spared Noah...
but since Noah is Adam and Eve's descendadnt...andun pa rin ang sinful nature nya
the act of eating the forbidden fruit...is an act of disobedience...no matter how trivial it is...it is a SIN...it is an offense towards God...
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:27:23 GMT 10
Turn to Genesis 1:26-31. In what likeness or image was man created (vs. 27)? Was man created higher than or on the same level as the animals (vs. 28)? How do we know this (vs. 27-28)? After God saw all that He had made, what does the Bible say He felt about His creation (vs. 31)? Is there any mention of anything evil being a part of God's creation in these verses (26-31)?
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:28:25 GMT 10
Is there any mention of anything evil being a part of God's creation in these verses (26-31)?
WALA naman po....at reminder lang kay Kuya B...wala din ako sinabi na MAN is intrinsically evil..
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:28:49 GMT 10
Genesis 2 tells us more about the creation of man. Let's look at verses 7-9 and 15-17. How did man become a living soul or being (vs. 7)? What two trees are specifically mentioned as being a part of God's creation (vs. 9)? What was the job of the first man (Adam) according to verse 15? What command does God give to Adam (vs. 16-17)? Does God warn the man about the penalty or consequences of disobeying this command (vs. 17)? What is the penalty?
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:29:26 GMT 10
Genesis 3 is one of the most important chapters of the entire Bible. We must understand this chapter in order to understand the nature of sin. In Genesis 3 we are introduced to an evil being who uses the body of one of God's creatures, a serpent, to speak to Eve, the woman God had created. This evil being is called Satan or the devil throughout the rest of the Bible. Satan was originally a created angel who refused to submit to God's authority and attempted to overthrow God as King of the Universe. In rebelling against the authority of God, the devil became a completely evil being and sin came into the world. Many other angels joined the devil in rebellion against God and became evil spirits.
kuya B...ayan si Satan INTRINSICALLY EVIL...
man is a sinner by nature but not intrinsically evil...
wala po ako sinasabi na man is intrinsically evil...
what I am saying is...God intended MAN to be good..but he is or maybe became sinful in nature...
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:32:58 GMT 10
Does the woman understand the penalty for disobedience to God's command (vs. 2-3)? How does the devil speak against or contradict what God has told Adam and Eve about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (vs. 4)? What good things does the devil tell the woman will happen to her if she eats the fruit (vs. 5)? What clear choice is the woman now faced with? What choice do she and her husband make (vs. 6)? Thomas Watson has written: "Eve gave more credit to the devil when he spake than she did to God."
it was her choice to give more credit to the devil than to God
as is was Satan's choice to rebel against God
God created the angels to glorify Him, but they chose to rebel and thus sin was born into the world..
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 20:43:29 GMT 10
Mankind, or human nature, was the last created, and is the greatest species of animal life, because we were made in God’s image and likeness. (Genesis 1:24-27). Man was to be sustained in life by both the vegetable life and the other animal life which preceded his creation. (Genesis 1:29-30). There is no suggestion or hint whatever that man was given anything at all of the spiritual, or eternal life. Rather, "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Hebrew, nephesh chayiah = ‘living, breathing creature’), (Genesis 2:7). Certainly the life he received (and still receives) from breathing, eating and drinking was a precious gift, most precious, from God. But the "living soul" he became was NOT an ever living soul, but a continuing-to-live-soul, or person. Made as 'animal', and therefore necessarily frail, and of corruptible constitution, his continuance in life depended upon two things: 1. Continuing to eat the 'herbs and meat' (Gen. 1-30), of the Garden of Eden, "very good" in their life-sustaining, energizing ingredients and power; and, 2. Continuing obedient to God’s clear and simple law of Eden. (Genesis 2:15-17).
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 5, 2006 20:46:58 GMT 10
[qoute]at gumawa ng bagong couple in His own image...but He did not...he still gave Adam and Eve provisions to survive outside the garden of eden[/quote][/size]
and also, nilayo sila ni LORD sa tree of life kasi kung makakain nila ang bunga, di sila mamamatay, forever silang mamumuhay sa kasalanan......
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 21:21:01 GMT 10
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
when God created light....sinabi nya rin it was good..
when He created vegetation...sabi nya it was good..
when He created animals...sabi nya it was good..
but light..vegetation...animals...wala namang moral faculties...walang conscience...walang soul..sinabi nyang it was good..because he was pleased with his creations...coz it was beautifiul a great work of art...but I do not think it relates to the nature of light..nature of vegetation..nature of animals...kasi wala naman conscience mga yun..
so ganun din sa human nature...when He created man and on the sixth day...He said it was very good...i dont think he is specifically saying human nature is good...
when He said He created man in His image...image lang yun. Man was intended to be good...a reflection of His Being...but we are not created as Gods...in our own merits...as God has a divine nature..
He cannot create another God ...He can create an image a reflection of Himself...but not Himself...hindi nya pwede iclone sarili nya
Man was created to please Him...
si Satan akala nya He can be God himself...
and God wants to prove to Satan na Sya lang ang God...that even if God creates MAN, and is given a choice to do good or evil Satan cannot Lord over MAN
God gave man enough struggle to prove to SATAN na di tayo programmable... pero binigyan din tayo ni God ng weapon to fight Satan and that is our faith
we glorify God on our own accord...despite the struggles...despite our SINFUL nature
and if we fight sin with God on our side, we will value walking with Him...di kagaya ni Satan na nagrebelde na lang kasi, hindi naranasan ni Satan na mahirapan na magstruggle without God...kaya akala nya pwede rin sya maging God...
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 21:24:21 GMT 10
Man was created to please Him...instead Man caused grief to God by man's disobedience, but unlike what happened to Satan, di nya tayo pababayaan maging instrincally evil like Satan, He will send the powers of the Holy Spirit to help us gain victory over sin..
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Post by ruth on Jun 5, 2006 21:29:31 GMT 10
man is corruptible in NATURe...sinful in nature..spiritually dead.
but God can give us SPIRITUAL LIFE eternally, if and only if we are refined to what He intended us to be...
and He will REFINE us with FIRE...para malaman natin gaano kahirap ma-earn ang eternal life
di kagaya ni Satan...na ibnigay sa kanya ng kusa ang eternal life, na walang prohibitions, na walang conditions at struggles
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 6, 2006 17:02:36 GMT 10
WALA naman po....at reminder lang kay Kuya B...wala din ako sinabi na MAN is intrinsically evil..
Hi Ruth,
Again. : )
1. When we say man is a sinner by nature it means that the being and essence of man is evil. Sin has become part of the being of man and basis of his existence. This is the same as saying man is intrinsically evil or was created evil because sin is used to describe the nature of man.
Thus, one may not say that man is intirinsically evil evil but if one suggest or implies a premise like "man is a sinner by nature" is the same thing as saying that man is intrinsically evil by nature.
However, it is different when we say that man is a slave to sin meaning man which is by nature good is weak and often tempted to sin.
2. When we I said that free will is limited, it means that Free Will is not absolute. Proof of this is even man under his "free will" is still under the Law.
For example Man could not will himself to fly - man can will all he wants but he could not fly. Another example, Man can will to commit murder - but man still has to answer under God's Law. This is what I meant why free will is limited or not absolute.
We have to realize that there is a purpose why free will was created and granted to Man. The main purpose is for man to use this free will to do good in order to serve and love God. Abuse is not an excercise of authority but rather the illuse of responsibility.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 6, 2006 17:05:44 GMT 10
Satan was originally a created angel who refused to submit to God's authority and attempted to overthrow God as King of the Universe. In rebelling against the authority of God, the devil became a completely evil being and sin came into the world. Many other angels joined the devil in rebellion against God and became evil spirits.
kuya B...ayan si Satan INTRINSICALLY EVIL...
Hi Ruth,
Pagka sinabi nating intrinsically evil, ginawa ang isang nilalang na evil from the very start.
We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate.
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 6, 2006 20:22:23 GMT 10
Satan was originally a created angel who refused to submit to God's authority and attempted to overthrow God as King of the Universe. In rebelling against the authority of God, the devil became a completely evil being and sin came into the world. Many other angels joined the devil in rebellion against God and became evil spirits. kuya B...ayan si Satan INTRINSICALLY EVIL... Hi Ruth, Pagka sinabi nating intrinsically evil, ginawa ang isang nilalang na evil from the very start.We also have to distinguish the nature between angels and man. Hindi po tayo pareho ng nature dahil ang mga angehl ay mas superior pagdating sa discernment at wisdom. Kaya when they disobeyed (the angels) punishment was immediate. Therefore GOD made lucifer and HIS rebellious companions an evil one among angels from the very start?
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 7, 2006 1:22:22 GMT 10
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Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:26:43 GMT 10
yoko nga, gusto ko yung version nimo
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Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:35:05 GMT 10
wahh napunta sa angels yung doctrine of man dhail nakasalisi si lucifer ;D gagawa tayo ng doctrine of angels naman wahhhh
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Post by linsi on Jun 7, 2006 1:35:42 GMT 10
wahh napunta sa angels yung doctrine of man dahill nakasalisi si lucifer ;D gagawa tayo ng doctrine of angels naman wahhhh
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 7, 2006 1:40:43 GMT 10
kasi nabanggit ang mga angels e... wahehe.... and angels were created evil from the very start sabi Kuya B....
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Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:26:39 GMT 10
kasi nabanggit ang mga angels e... wahehe.... and angels were created evil from the very start sabi Kuya B.... oo nga daw...hmmm
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Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:30:16 GMT 10
that is why I still believe that that human nature is sinful...paulit ulit sinabi sa Bible yan...ang medyo grey area lang is whether human nature is sinful before or after the fall...
kuya B= human nature is good before and after the Fall linsi = human nature is good before the Fall ruth = human nature was proved sinful after the Fall
so for linsi and me, we are basing our belief about human nature accdng to what is written in the Bible, magkaiba lang kami interpretation.
kuya B...can you support your premise using Bible verses...I have mentioned Bible verses regarding the flood wherein God said man is wicked...and He was grieved...
any comment po dito?
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Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:33:18 GMT 10
i also think being evil and being sinful is NOT the same
as an evil being kasi your only motivation is anger God...to rebel against God...as an evil being it means you are trying to be superior than God...and you are deceiving other beings to destroy their relationship with God
whereas kapag sinful ka...you offended God..without your inner motives to displease or earn the wrath of God...
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Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:44:35 GMT 10
kuya B:
. When we say man is a sinner by nature it means that the being and essence of man is evil. Sin has become part of the being of man and basis of his existence. This is the same as saying man is intrinsically evil or was created evil because sin is used to describe the nature of man.
ruth:
again being sinful by nature and being evil is not the same.
and God did not create evil...
first it might seem that if God created all things then evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs, like running. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing..
analogy:
COLD does not exist
HEAT exist
COLD is the absence of HEAT
EVIL does not exist Good exist
EVIL is the absence of Goodness/Righteousness...
and Satan and his demons do not possess goodness/righteousness
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Post by ruth on Jun 9, 2006 22:46:21 GMT 10
We, as finite human beings, can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from an eternal perspective. We look at things from an earthly perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in Heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? The best answer I can come up with is this: God didn’t want a race of robots who did not have a free will. God had to allow the possibility of evil for us to have a true choice of whether to worship God or not. If we never had to suffer and experience evil, would we truly know how wonderful heaven is? God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He hadn’t allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own free will.
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Post by ruth on Jun 19, 2006 16:09:13 GMT 10
nawawala na si Kuya Banshik, kung kelan pa naman andito na si supremo at empire.
lie low na nga muna ako...let us just pray for WISDOM muna...at baka sa kalituhan at dami ng topics eh...sariling perspective na lang ang nakikita natin..
minsan may mga bagay talaga na Dyos lang ang me alam..no matter how we try. I think what is important is that we are trying to understand it His way.
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Post by ruth on Jun 19, 2006 16:10:17 GMT 10
Kuya B and Linsi..hotty
if I tend to dominate the thread please remind me..ahehe! minsan kasi naci-carried away ako..
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Post by linsi on Jun 19, 2006 16:17:52 GMT 10
hi ruth post lang ng post para later sagot naman ng sagot kami, isa pa tagal mong nawala noh?
dapat lahat ng rooms may post kaw
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