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Post by Always on Oct 4, 2006 10:29:08 GMT 10
I could not completely agree. The "teacher-student" illustration cannot be taken seriously when it comes to your declarations about "closing the gap". Let me mention about the primary shcoolers such as instances considered by teachers to pass academically poor students who failed adherance to "guidelines" for the sake of finishing the primary grades. I have seen this, i can attest it.
How do some of the teachers make it? They give some school projects to boost the grades and pass them.
Projects are just part of the guidelines of what students must do, as teachers' guidelines are just part of their curriculums to teach Thus, handing out projects to students is not the same as God helping His children. A project is an indirect form of guidelines with the same frequency as human do his chores for the glory of God
And by that, it is another form of closing the gaps thingy
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Post by Always on Oct 4, 2006 10:50:49 GMT 10
Going back on the same arguments, man can only perform in his limited deprived state. Moral Law (guidelines) can only remind. God who is described as the absolute power must still have the responsibility so that man can take the full benefit from it.
As i said, the notion of a powerful God introduced to man can be likened to a river, and man a tea cup who cannot contain. If you are trying to refer God's responsibility to that of God helping one's judgment or passing the the guidlines, then, that is a big no no. It is important for theist to know that FreeWill is created by God for us to act upon it. Theists are given enough specific values and guidelines for us to perform in a sense to know what is right and what is wrong in any situation.
By doing so, even though we are not perfect as compared to God, as long as we follow His path of guidelines to the best we can in the nearness of things, we can attain salvation in His perfect glory. In fact, the call to follow Jesus Christ is the simplest summation of Christian Ethics, AND AT THE SAME TIME, the most difficult thing for every man to do
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Post by rafael on Oct 5, 2006 3:24:02 GMT 10
I could not completely agree. The "teacher-student" illustration cannot be taken seriously when it comes to your declarations about "closing the gap". Let me mention about the primary shcoolers such as instances considered by teachers to pass academically poor students who failed adherance to "guidelines" for the sake of finishing the primary grades. I have seen this, i can attest it.
How do some of the teachers make it? They give some school projects to boost the grades and pass them.
Projects are just part of the guidelines of what students must do, as teachers' guidelines are just part of their curriculums to teach Thus, handing out projects to students is not the same as God helping His children. A project is an indirect form of guidelines with the same frequency as human do his chores for the glory of God
And by that, it is another form of closing the gaps thingy
There is a lesson plan consistent with a curriculum, it may be true that projects are part of it, but there is minimum and maximum requirements Where some academically poor students fail to fulfill and fall out of the range, an additional project closes the gap “thingy” and who innitiated it? Is it the teacher or the student? Knowing that there are failing grades in his/her student’s lists. Who makes adjustments then?
Therefore we go back again to who is not deprived which must initiate in closing the gap.
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Post by rafael on Oct 5, 2006 3:27:17 GMT 10
Going back on the same arguments, man can only perform in his limited deprived state. Moral Law (guidelines) can only remind. God who is described as the absolute power must still have the responsibility so that man can take the full benefit from it.
As i said, the notion of a powerful God introduced to man can be likened to a river, and man a tea cup who cannot contain. If you are trying to refer God's responsibility to that of God helping one's judgment or passing the the guidlines, then, that is a big no no. It is important for theist to know that FreeWill is created by God for us to act upon it. Theists are given enough specific values and guidelines for us to perform in a sense to know what is right and what is wrong in any situation.
By doing so, even though we are not perfect as compared to God, as long as we follow His path of guidelines to the best we can in the nearness of things, we can attain salvation in His perfect glory. In fact, the call to follow Jesus Christ is the simplest summation of Christian Ethics, AND AT THE SAME TIME, the most difficult thing for every man to do
Now you acknowledge that man's greatest enemy is his incapacity to perform the path of guidelines, that is what i am trying to say.
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Post by rafael on Oct 5, 2006 3:30:41 GMT 10
In a creationist's point of view, God created man< In a skeptic's point of view, a Creator must be superior against his creation.
The Creator gave guidelines and freedom,to his creation to follow and perform but the creature has much deprivation.
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Post by Always on Oct 6, 2006 6:47:58 GMT 10
There is a lesson plan consistent with a curriculum, it may be true that projects are part of it, but there is minimum and maximum requirements Where some academically poor students fail to fulfill and fall out of the range, an additional project closes the gap “thingy” and who innitiated it? Is it the teacher or the student? Knowing that there are failing grades in his/her student’s lists. Who makes adjustments then?
Therefore we go back again to who is not deprived which must initiate in closing the gap.
Well, it is true that projects are part in every curriculum which a teacher must employ to students and this includes make-up tests or additional projects. Teachers do not initiate them because it is already a part of the guidelines within a currilculum, since there are limitations before passing the class; and this is in consonance with the Laws of God. Man because of his ineptness to be perfect always have the time(before the 2nd coming) to make amends from sinning. Time is the main denominator as in with teachers turning in students' grades to its finality within a period. The school where I came from is once you fail the make-ups you really fail--no buts; :-/but, if its otherwise just like the one you are implying (as in a person who keeps on sinning) then discipline is the main problem of that teacher. And if I have to make the teacher analogous to god then that god is not of Christian Theism.
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Post by Always on Oct 6, 2006 6:52:08 GMT 10
Going back on the same arguments, man can only perform in his limited deprived state. Moral Law (guidelines) can only remind. God who is described as the absolute power must still have the responsibility so that man can take the full benefit from it.
As i said, the notion of a powerful God introduced to man can be likened to a river, and man a tea cup who cannot contain. If you are trying to refer God's responsibility to that of God helping one's judgment or passing the the guidlines, then, that is a big no no. It is important for theist to know that FreeWill is created by God for us to act upon it. Theists are given enough specific values and guidelines for us to perform in a sense to know what is right and what is wrong in any situation.
By doing so, even though we are not perfect as compared to God, as long as we follow His path of guidelines to the best we can in the nearness of things, we can attain salvation in His perfect glory. In fact, the call to follow Jesus Christ is the simplest summation of Christian Ethics, AND AT THE SAME TIME, the most difficult thing for every man to do
Now you acknowledge that man's greatest enemy is his incapacity to perform the path of guidelines, that is what i am trying to say.
Well, it seems to me that you miss my post regarding the 2-km line just before my teacher/student scenario
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Post by Always on Oct 6, 2006 7:03:38 GMT 10
In a creationist's point of view, God created man< In a skeptic's point of view, a Creator must be superior against his creation.
The Creator gave guidelines and freedom,to his creation to follow and perform but the creature has much deprivation.
Well, it seems you miss another one again, when I mentioned pantheism(ka eli scenario) in earlier page. Is theistic point of view the same to that of skeptic's pov as you say? It is not a must for a creator to be superior to his creation coz it is not (as in) an obligation of such percieved creator. But in a theistic view, a Creator is "at all times" and "invariably" superior to his creation
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Post by rafael on Oct 10, 2006 3:51:31 GMT 10
There is a lesson plan consistent with a curriculum, it may be true that projects are part of it, but there is minimum and maximum requirements Where some academically poor students fail to fulfill and fall out of the range, an additional project closes the gap “thingy” and who innitiated it? Is it the teacher or the student? Knowing that there are failing grades in his/her student’s lists. Who makes adjustments then?
Therefore we go back again to who is not deprived which must initiate in closing the gap.
Well, it is true that projects are part in every curriculum which a teacher must employ to students and this includes make-up tests or additional projects. Teachers do not initiate them because it is already a part of the guidelines within a currilculum, since there are limitations before passing the class; and this is in consonance with the Laws of God. Man because of his ineptness to be perfect always have the time(before the 2nd coming) to make amends from sinning. Time is the main denominator as in with teachers turning in students' grades to its finality within a period. The school where I came from is once you fail the make-ups you really fail--no buts; :-/but, if its otherwise just like the one you are implying (as in a person who keeps on sinning) then discipline is the main problem of that teacher. And if I have to make the teacher analogous to god then that god is not of Christian Theism.
Teachers are in a position to pass or fail a student, their main objective is for students to learn and eventually earn a degree. Schools may vary in their curriculum and guidelines, but students can always choose other schools of learning if he/she fails from one institution. If a student continue to fail (sinning) i can go back to my earlier question about depravity. One who is weak and deprived cannot help himself unless the one who is not deprived will help.
Does God of theists just sit on a lofty throne give the Decalogue and watch weaklings fail? Even if man comes to the nearest and closest standard, still imperfections will unable him close the gap.
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Post by Always on Oct 10, 2006 12:23:35 GMT 10
Does God of theists just sit on a lofty throne give the Decalogue and watch weaklings fail? Even if man comes to the nearest and closest standard, still imperfections will unable him close the gap.
Then why would a teacher pass a student even though he only gets (let's say) 80%? Simply because that is the nearest he could only attain to close the gap even though he is not a perfect student
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Post by Always on Oct 10, 2006 12:38:31 GMT 10
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Post by rafael on Oct 14, 2006 4:15:50 GMT 10
Teachers are in a position to pass or fail a student, their main objective is for students to learn and eventually earn a degree. Schools may vary in their curriculum and guidelines, but students can always choose other schools of learning if he/she fails from one institution. If a student continue to fail (sinning) i can go back to my earlier question about depravity. One who is weak and deprived cannot help himself unless the one who is not deprived will help.
That is why we also have guidance councellor in school in order to give advice and motivate a student about his academic problems. It is also analogous to priest or ministers who gives advice to his spiritual constituents not to continue in sinning but motivate them to close that gap as near as possible even though the priest knows that no one is perfect but perfect enough in the eyes of God Yes, God can just sit in His throne co'z He has other children that could increase in extent His ethical cause
[/b][/quote] How can we settle this argument?
As I innitially stated in my POV, only "God" or someone not deprived can do it. For you man closes the gap, to the nearest, "para hindi mawalay sa kanya".Two opposing arguments. Since man is deprived, he needs all the help to make him aware that he is deprived and must rely on someone powerful to mould him in all aspects.
That should be the case when it comes to theism,believing that a God is a powerful being over his subjects.And man is the weak creature dependent on him.
How could man be as responsible if not for a power and authority outside him to enable him to be? This is theistic.
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Post by Always on Oct 14, 2006 13:11:12 GMT 10
How can we settle this argument?
As I innitially stated in my POV, only "God" or someone not deprived can do it.
This is in the same sense when the snake talked to Eve that by eating the fruit of knowledge she would be like God and not deprived of it. [/b]
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Post by Always on Oct 14, 2006 13:52:18 GMT 10
Since man is deprived, he needs all the help to make him aware that he is deprived and must rely on someone powerful to mould him in all aspects.
That should be the case when it comes to theism,believing that a God is a powerful being over his subjects.And man is the weak creature dependent on him.
In moral sense, totally depraved person is one who has no intention to do good; whereas, a totally depraved car is a rust spot on the road as in with the metaphysical sense. Christian Ethics, in the final analysis, relies on God and His Word for the full explanation of the moral order without any intervention. Just as I have been implying ever since that the Ten Commandments (Decalogue) was handed down, it acts as the "basic laws" for every person to follow. And without it, a person is deprave which leads to his wicked acts.
Mankind is dependent with the Decalogue to be followed and it serve as the intermediary tool or the main medium in order to attain what is necessary to be with God. With that in mind, mankind is not depraved knowing that he has guidance from the basic laws and all other laws revealed by God.
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Post by Always on Oct 14, 2006 14:00:18 GMT 10
How could man be as responsible if not for a power and authority outside him to enable him to be? This is theistic.
The querry itself is of atheistic origin because you are asking about it Did I not say that God created the fact of freedom? And man performs the acts of freedom. Man creates his own destiny base on the freedom given to him by God--and that is theistic
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Post by rafael on Oct 17, 2006 3:30:11 GMT 10
How can we settle this argument?
As I innitially stated in my POV, only "God" or someone not deprived can do it.
This is in the same sense when the snake talked to Eve that by eating the fruit of knowledge she would be like God and not deprived of it. [/b][/quote]
But your bible stated it otherwise proving that the snake was a liar according to the teachings.Others say that the snake told the truth, that is again one confusing part of the story.
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Post by rafael on Oct 17, 2006 3:40:47 GMT 10
In moral sense, totally depraved person is one who has no intention to do good; whereas, a totally depraved car is a rust spot on the road as in with the metaphysical sense. Christian Ethics, in the final analysis, relies on God and His Word for the full explanation of the moral order without any intervention.
In terms of "closing the gap" i believe that man is deprived and could never close the gap even if he comes to the nearest standard, that is if the christian god is perfectly holy as what theology teaches, but in terms of doing good, man has an inherent goodness ( a skeptic's vehicle through humanism). It is quite contradictory to say that man has no intention to do good as what you said. Christian doctrines teach that man was created according to image of "God" and therefore basically has inherent goodness. I found your declarations vague.
What i am trying to say is man's depraved condition unable to close a gap.
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Post by rafael on Oct 17, 2006 3:46:18 GMT 10
Just as I have been implying ever since that the Ten Commandments (Decalogue) was handed down, it acts as the "basic laws" for every person to follow. And without it, a person is deprave which leads to his wicked acts.
Mankind is dependent with the Decalogue to be followed and it serve as the intermediary tool or the main medium in order to attain what is necessary to be with God. With that in mind, mankind is not depraved knowing that he has guidance from the basic laws and all other laws revealed by God.
I disagree, talking about the laws, man failed to comply with the Decalogue, isn't that a constant reminder of man's depravity? the laws above his head and yet man falls short.
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Post by Always on Oct 17, 2006 6:35:35 GMT 10
Others say that the snake told the truth, that is again one confusing part of the story.
Tell me, who are these people that suppose~dly claimed the snake told the truth
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Post by Always on Oct 17, 2006 6:46:50 GMT 10
In terms of "closing the gap" i believe that man is deprived and could never close the gap even if he comes to the nearest standard, that is if the christian god is perfectly holy as what theology teaches,
You are defeating your own purpose If standard is liken to a summit and when you are near the summit, then, there is a gap NEAR the summit. That being said, man closes the gaps that is why he could reach such standard as near as possible. Which by the way is not self defeating in reasons and logic. i.e. Teacher-student scenario
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Post by Always on Oct 17, 2006 6:58:07 GMT 10
I disagree, talking about the laws, man failed to comply with the Decalogue, isn't that a constant reminder of man's depravity? the laws above his head and yet man falls short.
When man fails to comply with the Decalogue, it is a constant reminder that he commits sin. The Ten Commandments serve as the guidelines in order for man not to separate himself from God [/color]
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Post by rafael on Oct 19, 2006 3:03:32 GMT 10
Others say that the snake told the truth, that is again one confusing part of the story.
Tell me, who are these people that suppose~dly claimed the snake told the truth I pressume you know it more than I do, when it comes to commentaries about biblical verses.
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Post by rafael on Oct 19, 2006 3:05:53 GMT 10
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Post by Always on Nov 11, 2006 3:14:05 GMT 10
Others say that the snake told the truth, that is again one confusing part of the story.
Tell me, who are these people that suppose~dly claimed the snake told the truth I pressume you know it more than I do, when it comes to commentaries about biblical verses.
Then why would you say that there are others Who are those people or else what you are trying to claim are all but hearsay
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Post by Always on Nov 11, 2006 3:19:29 GMT 10
In terms of "closing the gap" i believe that man is deprived and could never close the gap even if he comes to the nearest standard, that is if the christian god is perfectly holy as what theology teaches,
You are defeating your own purpose If standard is liken to a summit and when you are near the summit, then, there is a gap NEAR the summit. That being said, man closes the gaps that is why he could reach such standard as near as possible. Which by the way is not self defeating in reasons and logic. i.e. Teacher-student scenario
I understand that what you meant by closing the gap is for man to reach the standard as near as possible but that is only as near, therefore a gap still exist
If you are finish drinking water from a glass (let's say bottoms up,) would you be able to say that you drink all the water from the glass Let me give you another example, do you think your perfect wife would be perfect in the eyes of others
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migy
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Post by migy on Dec 23, 2006 19:31:01 GMT 10
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Post by rafael on Jan 10, 2007 2:53:56 GMT 10
Then why would you say that there are others Who are those people or else what you are trying to claim are all but hearsay We can say it is a hearsay, we cannot quote identities everytime, many are just ordinary people who verbalize their views and it make sense to some. It is important to know the facts from the myths, and figure things as they come out.
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Post by rafael on Jan 10, 2007 2:56:43 GMT 10
If you are finish drinking water from a glass (let's say bottoms up,) would you be able to say that you drink all the water from the glass Let me give you another example, do you think your perfect wife would be perfect in the eyes of others
That's the point, but a gap is a gap, it is not perception but a fact that it is a gap.
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Post by Always on Jan 10, 2007 20:50:45 GMT 10
I'm sorry but you're not again consistent from your previous post... hearsay is not even correlated with the gap as in a subjective scenario Try again
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