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Post by linsi on May 31, 2006 13:22:50 GMT 10
kuya banshik
i have to be honest with you, i donot like the way you handle discourses here..
you ask questions in circles or you extend ideas leading the main topic away.
i am not into this
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Post by linsi on May 31, 2006 13:26:32 GMT 10
I disagree on your interpretation of divine filiation. Please review what filiation in the context of faith means. Example of Natural/Physical Filiation = God the Father and God the Son. Example of divine filiation = God the Father and Man. It is not mere terminology of "affiliation or membership" but adescription on the nature of relationship between man and God.
Divine Filiation is not conditional. God applied His "adoption" of man to the whole of mankind. It means whether is a believer/non-beliver, born-again/not born again - all men are sons God. Jesus Christ died for all mankind and did not set any condition that His death was conditional to those only born again.
Being "born again" in John 3.3 is not divine filiation. It is an explanation for the condition of man's salvation. It is an explanation the need of man to obtain grace in order for the soul which is dead to be born again.
No,
not all men are sons of God,
be reminded that after the fall of adam and eve, man was alienated from God and there is now no way to reach out back to HIM, not in any way not in any form, not in any sacrifice.
all men are creation of God but the relationship was severed after and immediately after the fall, death came upon us all,
but by his grace God invites us to be his sons and daughters,by sending his only begotten son, this is the only way.
Divine Filiation is conditional
The death of Christ is sufficient to all but only those who acknowledge and receive Christ and on what He has done on the cross, and a relationship with Christ, gets the benefit of it. It is effective only to those who receive by faith. this is the condition and requirement, it is never unconditional as what you said.
Grace awaits for those who are not yet in it.
Being born again includes us into the family of God.
and only through Christ that the Father would accept us all.
now i am ending up here
sorry
kuya banshik, i cannot go on discussing conscience like this..
you may post but i am not answering you in this topic again.
i have said what has to be said.
my stand is unmoved. thanks you po.
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Post by bangzhik101 on May 31, 2006 14:35:22 GMT 10
Hi Linsi,
I am glad that the discussion inspired a lot to study more and learn about their doctrine of faith. I realized before that a lot of forumers are well versed with the doctrine concerning the Nature of God, but many may not have the same background when it comes to the doctrine concerning the role of man and his relationship with God.
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Post by bangzhik101 on May 31, 2006 14:37:38 GMT 10
Mine: Sorry Linsi, but you never answered the question. The question was not a question about justice. The question is a question about consistency because: (a) You believe that sin is not transferable (b) But contends Ada, and Eve's sin gave mankind this "curse"
Hi Linsi,
Again. The question is not about justice. it is a request to explain your position regarding the "curse" received by mankind because Adam and Eve sinned against God.
Why insist the the question is about justice? Again, I only mentioned "justice" to stress the point to describe a nature of God that is consistent.
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Post by bangzhik101 on May 31, 2006 14:47:23 GMT 10
Yours: No, not all men are sons of God,
be reminded that after the fall of adam and eve, man was alienated from God and there is now no way to reach out back to HIM, not in any way not in any form, not in any sacrifice. all men are creation of God but the relationship was severed after and immediately after the fall, death came upon us all,
but by his grace God invites us to be his sons and daughters,by sending his only begotten son, this is the only way.
Divine Filiation is conditional
The death of Christ is sufficient to all but only those who acknowledge and receive Christ and on what He has done on the cross, and a relationship with Christ, gets the benefit of it. It is effective only to those who receive by faith. this is the condition and requirement, it is never unconditional as what you said.
Grace awaits for those who are not yet in it.
Being born again includes us into the family of God. and only through Christ that the Father would accept us all.
now i am ending up here
sorry
kuya banshik, i cannot go on discussing conscience like this..
you may post but i am not answering you in this topic again. i have said what has to be said. my stand is unmoved. thanks you po.
Hi Linsi,
I understand.
I just hope you reconsider and study further on "divine filiation". Salvation and its precepts have certain conditions - but the adoptive or divine filiation was decided by God not man.
This is the reason why God calls men his sons. This is the reason why men call each other brothers be it Jew or Gentile. If one reads St. Paul, divine filiation was the fundamental cause why "circumcision" no longer serves a condition being sons of God.
Just some points to reflect.
1. If not all men are sons of God, how could the grace obtained from the death of Christ was applied to mankind? Does this mean Christ only died for the Christians?
2. If not all men are sons of God, how would you call those who are not Christians? Why would Christ instruct us to share the Gospel for those who are not His sons and not our brothers?
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Post by hottyfecehh on May 31, 2006 16:00:58 GMT 10
page 3 na a...hmmmn haba na...
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:08:18 GMT 10
oo nga hotty eh...nahihilo na ako sa haba...
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:08:45 GMT 10
kuya B...ako naman magtanong...san ba tayo nahinto nung isang araw sa Nature of Man di ba?
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Post by hottyfecehh on May 31, 2006 20:10:20 GMT 10
moral law, natural law, human nature at human mind.... ano na naman tong...... divine filiation ..Kuya banshik kumabaga kami ni ruth na mga baby christian, di maintindihan yan.... waaaaaaaaaaa, dami nang sanga sanga... in fact kasi iisa lang naman ang LAW... And God's LAW is the origin among LAWS, kung anumang LAWS meron pa... Kahit martial LAW ni macoy pede sundin ng tao kung sakaling mawala ang konsensya nito....
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:15:23 GMT 10
ako naman po...
nung una ito rin po ang stand ko...that man by nature is Good...at naging masama lang dahil sa outside forces..
kaya lang kuya B...kung ganito nga ang natura ng man...then ang tendency natin is to blame outside forces kung bakit tayo nagkakasala...imbes na we take responsibility for our mistakes...
if you will believe that man by nature is a sinner...mas magkakaron tayo ng responsibility for our mistakes i
isa pa...it is much reassuring to know...that we are in our worst being better...kesa good being worst...
God intended us to be good...by creating us in His image..but do we behave like Him ? are we sinless like Him?
Though we are sinners, He continously dispenses grace so that we will gain victory over sin...at maging much better persons tayo...closer to what He intended us to be..
isnt that more reassuring? isnt that a God of justice?
The curse that befell Adam and Eve which is alienation from God...is part of God's just character....at ito ay naipasa sa mga sons and daughters ni Adam and Eve..so that we learn that sin has consequences na di natin matatakasan.
di ko maimagine na lahat ng kasalanan ko ay magkakaron ng consequence pati sa 3rd generations after me...hence I am afraid to sin..
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:19:26 GMT 10
sa tingin ko kung di tayo pareho ng stand about the nature of man...everything will just be in tangent...
di na magkakasundo pa sa ibang topics like conscience, salvation, moral culpability, divine affiliation etc...
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:42:29 GMT 10
linsi:
Divine Filiation is conditional
The death of Christ is sufficient to all but only those who acknowledge and receive Christ and on what He has done on the cross, and a relationship with Christ, gets the benefit of it. It is effective only to those who receive by faith. this is the condition and requirement, it is never unconditional as what you said. banshik: I just hope you reconsider and study further on "divine filiation". Salvation and its precepts have certain conditions - but the adoptive or divine filiation was decided by God not man.
parang pareho lang naman sinasabi nyo eh. The condition for Divine Affiliation is for man to acknowledge and receive Christ...but the decision (which began with the offer) is by God not man.
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:45:01 GMT 10
God: I offer you Divine Filiation, but here is one condition (Sya ang nag-state ng condition--therefore sa Kanya pa rin ang decision)....that you will accept Christ as Savior)
Man: I accept Christ as my Savior (I accept the condition)...
God: okay then you are my adopted son/daughter na (kasi si Christ lang naman son nya e---lahat tayo Creations lang)
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Post by ruth on May 31, 2006 20:48:17 GMT 10
now ang tanong paano ni God ioofer ang Divine Filiation?
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 11:09:07 GMT 10
Hi Hotty,
To simplify things:
Banshik Position on the Nature of Man
Man = Body + Soul Soul = Will + Intellect
Human Acts = comprised both actions of the Will and the Intellect. If one is missing (will or intellect) it is an imperfect act - meaning culpability is in question
Intellect is comprised by moral faculties like conscience. However, Intellect or conscience which is used for discernment is not absolute in defining good and evil. This is the reason that Man is under the Law (Moral Laws and Natural Law).
If one says the conscience is a product of the MIND this means that the nature of man is: Man = Body + soul Body = Mind (conscience) THis is not the case because the conscience is part of the soul not the mind.
How did we arrive at the Topic of Divine Filiation:
1. Man is made under the image of God 2. All men are sons of God 3. Divine Filiation is the basis of the relationship between God and Man. The same reason why God has to setup His laws. 4. It is important to define the Nature of Man that Man is also sons of God.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 11:23:13 GMT 10
Yours: parang pareho lang naman sinasabi nyo eh. The condition for Divine Affiliation is for man to acknowledge and receive Christ...but the decision (which began with the offer) is by God not man.
Hi Ruth,
Will answer your questions later. Just one short comment.
No. My position is different from Linsi here.
Man can not adopt God because we are only man. But God can adopt Man because He is God. Furthermore it was clear that Linsi's position that "not all are Son's of God".
My position was clear. All men are son's of God (believers and non-believers alike). My reason being that Christ's redemptive sacrifice was meant for all mankind. It was not conditional for those who believe and did not believe. This is the reason why "circumcision" (old covenant) was superceded by the the sacrifice of the new covenant - which allows gentiles and pagans to follow Christ.
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 13:28:25 GMT 10
kuya B. to prove to you that my position of the nature of Man is biblical and not based on theology or other fields of study. basahin nyo po ito: may deadline kasi ako tomorrow, kaya di ko maisa isa ang pattern na ito sa inyo as written in the book of Genesis. and I could not explain it any better than this article. mas articulate kasi sila. pbc.org/library/files/html/0201.html
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 13:31:14 GMT 10
huwag po muna natin pagusapan ang new covenant...darating tayo dyan...but first we have to agree on the nature of Man..that because of Adam and Eve's Fall, we were death to SIN....we were apart from God...we are Sinner by nature...we are not included in the "family of God" when we were born because of The Fall...
pero nga merong BUT...at yun ay nakasaad sa New Covenant....of which we are called adopted sons and daughters of God...
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 13:34:06 GMT 10
excerpt:
You find it reflected in the eighth Psalm. David says as he is looking into the heavens, "What is man that thou art mindful of him, and the son of man that thou dost care for him?" And then he answers his question, "Thou hast given him dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet." (Ps. 8:4,6) You only see that in Jesus. That is why the writer of Hebrews says, "We do not yet see every thing in subjection to him. But we see Jesus..." (Heb. 2:8.9) who as a man is the fulfillment of God's intention for man to be sovereign of the earth. In the garden before Adam fell, you see him as the lord of creation. He knew its mysteries, he controlled its activities. Man cannot do that any longer today. We have the urge to do so, but we can do it no longer
We have the urge to do so...we intended to be rigtheous..to be Good...or to be sons/daughters of God....but we can do it no longer...hindi na...
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 13:37:50 GMT 10
kaya parang convinced na ako sa sinasabi ni Linsi that the conscience is the voice of God...He calls us through our conscience...because that is part of Human Nature...we are sinners, apart from God...but He calls us through our conscience...because all of us have inherent desire to be RIGHTEOUS...
mapaMUSLIM ka pa..or atheist or agnostic or whatever pa...we all have inherent desire to be RIGHTEOUS...kaya nasasabi nya we are all sons of God..that we are all good by nature...
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 1, 2006 15:40:18 GMT 10
oo nga hotty eh...nahihilo na ako sa haba... nahihilo din ako hindi sa haba... Sa dami nang napag-usapan...
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 1, 2006 16:57:02 GMT 10
from ruth
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 19:01:41 GMT 10
moral law, natural law, human nature at human mind....
ano na naman tong...... divine filiation ..Kuya banshik kumabaga kami ni ruth na mga baby christian, di maintindihan yan....
waaaaaaaaaaa, dami nang sanga sanga... in fact kasi iisa lang naman ang LAW... And God's LAW is the origin among LAWS, kung anumang LAWS meron pa...
Kahit martial LAW ni macoy pede sundin ng tao kung sakaling mawala ang konsensya nito.... Hi Hotty,
Sa iyo muna kahit busy...Ruth I would get back to you later.
1. "Filiation" and "Affiliation" is different. Filiation refers to a relationship from a father to a son. Affiliation refers to mere membership. I think a lot of people become confused between filiation and affiliation.
2. When we say "divine filiation" it is the relationship between God and Man. Man by nature is not divine which means there could be no natural or physical filiation between Man and God.
Physical Filiation is present between God the Father and God the Son. Divine Filiation was fully achieved when Jesus Christ offered Himself sacrifice for the whole of mankind.
Mahalaga na malaman ng tao ito. If we want to know more the Nature of Man, it is important not only to define Man as being made under the image of God - but also Man as adoptive sons of God. Kaya may covenant between God and Man at kaya hindi tayo pababayaan ng Diyos.
This also supports that Man by nature is good because God would not adopt a being which is intrinsically evil. This also supports why the law and its application is universal and why moral culpability applies to all - lahat ng tao ay anak at may pananagutan sa Ama.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 19:45:27 GMT 10
Yours: nung una ito rin po ang stand ko...that man by nature is Good...at naging masama lang dahil sa outside forces..
kaya lang kuya B...kung ganito nga ang natura ng man...then ang tendency natin is to blame outside forces kung bakit tayo nagkakasala...imbes na we take responsibility for our mistakes...
if you will believe that man by nature is a sinner...mas magkakaron tayo ng responsibility for our mistakes i Hi Ruth,
Agree, the tendency of man is to blame others. We know because the moment Adam was confronted by God, Adam (like all men do) pointed to the woman. : )
But it does not mean that if man is by nature weak (tendency to sin) that man is already defined by nature a sinner.
When we say that man is already by nature a sinner, we are condemning man that he is already incapable of being responsbile for his actions. Why? Because we are saying that it is natural and expected for man to sin - which waters down moral culpability. It would be interpreted as "why need laws anyway if man is deemed to sin"?
It also means that God has created an intrinsically evil being which is contrary to His nature being the absolute good. Mas mahirap ito dahil impossibleng gumawa ng masama ang Diyos. Puwede ang Diyos gumawa ng mabuting tao na may kakayahan gumawa ng masama - pero hindi puwede gumawa ang Diyos ng masama dahil hindi natural sa pagiging Diyos ito.
But man, if truly made under the image of God and by nature is good - it means that the true nature and being of Man is to be with God. Why would man sell his birthright if his purpose is to be in God in Heaven?
Hindi ba mas matimbang isipin na kaya may Laws at kaya natin titignan ang ating responsibilities because we have "value" in our nature because we are good. Parang damit na malinis na dapat alagaan dahil ayaw natin masira at madumihan. I recall a similar analogy when Jesus thaught us that we are like the salt of the earth...
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 19:58:52 GMT 10
Yours: isa pa...it is much reassuring to know...that we are in our worst being better...kesa good being worst...
God intended us to be good...by creating us in His image..but do we behave like Him ? are we sinless like Him?
Though we are sinners, He continously dispenses grace so that we will gain victory over sin...at maging much better persons tayo...closer to what He intended us to be..
isnt that more reassuring? isnt that a God of justice? Hi Ruth,
I realize what you mean, but it is not man who made the rules - God did. It is not our comfort level which is the issue but rather God wanting to be reassured that all His creations - specially MAN being made under His own image be seen at its best.
Man may not behave like God but it does not mean we can not follow and obey Him. Man can achieve the state of grace (sinless). Dito may pagkakaiba ang doctrine of faith natin. In our case RCC believes that man can achieve the state of grace because God through Christ has given Sanctifying Grace which brings life back to the soul dead from sin.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 20:08:43 GMT 10
Yours: The curse that befell Adam and Eve which is alienation from God...is part of God's just character....at ito ay naipasa sa mga sons and daughters ni Adam and Eve..so that we learn that sin has consequences na di natin matatakasan.
di ko maimagine na lahat ng kasalanan ko ay magkakaron ng consequence pati sa 3rd generations after me...hence I am afraid to sin.. Hi Ruth, This is the predicament on the issue of the "curse". You have just defined it a measure of justice that God inflicted as a lesson. Points to ponder: (a) If Christ gave the message of truth which means Christians learned the lesson of moral responsibility - why is still mankind suffering from the "curse"? (b) If the "curse" is a measure of justice - why inflict it to others who are not aware of the sin of Adam and Eve? Is this true justice that men who did not commit the sin suffer from a curse their parents committed? You just described that if you sin you do not expect 3rd or future generations to carry the consequence of your sin. For the sake of argument that this is true, why would the generations after Adam still carry the consequence of the "curse". My opinion under the docrtine of our faith is that what you call the "curse" was original sin. If we define sin as an absence of grace, during the fall Adam and Eve lost Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace being the grace that allows man to be in union with God.
And since the sons of Adam (generations) could not inherit the Sanctifying Grace which Adam lost - all mankind is deemed to suffer the same fate. Until Jesus Christ redeemed it for mankind through His sacrifice.
This is our explanation and I do not expect you and others to agree. It was meant to offer and explanation why the "curse" is being carried on through generations to come.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 1, 2006 20:13:31 GMT 10
Yours:huwag po muna natin pagusapan ang new covenant...darating tayo dyan...but first we have to agree on the nature of Man..that because of Adam and Eve's Fall, we were death to SIN....we were apart from God...we are Sinner by nature...we are not included in the "family of God" when we were born because of The Fall...
pero nga merong BUT...at yun ay nakasaad sa New Covenant....of which we are called adopted sons and daughters of God... Hi Ruth,
Noted. But your last post just proved my point on what divine filiation means...
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 1, 2006 20:51:07 GMT 10
Kuya B.... Tanong po: Nun bang gawin ng Lord ang moral law, nag expect ba siya na susundin ito ng tao?
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:13:46 GMT 10
Physical Filiation is present between God the Father and God the Son. Divine Filiation was fully achieved when Jesus Christ offered Himself sacrifice for the whole of mankind.
Mahalaga na malaman ng tao ito. If we want to know more the Nature of Man, it is important not only to define Man as being made under the image of God - but also Man as adoptive sons of God. Kaya may covenant between God and Man at kaya hindi tayo pababayaan ng Diyos.
This also supports that Man by nature is good because God would not adopt a being which is intrinsically evil. This also supports why the law and its application is universal and why moral culpability applies to all - lahat ng tao ay anak at may pananagutan sa Ama.
kuya B. grammatical error ko lang po yun affiliation.ok agree ako sa difference ng filiation at affiliation. and as you can see from my previous posts...sa New covenant isinasaad that trough the blood of Jesus by accepting Him as Lord and Savior, we are now adopted sons and daughters of God... but then again..magkaiba pa rin tayo sa stand natin about human nature. so is there a reason pa to discuss conscience further? to discuss salvation etcetera? to discuss redemption?
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:21:11 GMT 10
kuya B...
mukhang di nyo po nireview ang Genesis...nakasaad po doon ang pattern ng tao...that after The Fall...we are nothing...because we do not have filiation with God....pero hind nya ito ipinagkaait forever...binigyan nya nga lang tayo ng condition.
Nung creation...panahon ng Genesis...panahon ni Adam and Eve...filiation with God does not have any condition...ibingay ito ng kusa kay Adam and Eve na walang kondisyon.
but after that meron na...and as you can see because of the curse...naging pattern na ng tao na mapasama without fellowship with Christ...
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph...pare-pareho ang pattern nila..without personal relationship with God..they were never righteous...without personal relationship with God they were not able to fulfill what God has intended for them...
hindi na po birth right ang Divine filiation after The Fall...
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