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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:24:24 GMT 10
Ruth
let me state it to you that the probationary commandment given to adam was not personal, it was moral, there was no obvious wrong in eating from the forbidden fruit, the fall of adam and eve is the result of disobedience..
i am telling this because God intended man to be good until he was tested..
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:26:43 GMT 10
my post here is under the natural man which is also related to natural law..isa isa lang, while kuya banshik tends to reply covering the future, i wanted to talk to you ruth at himayin ang present idea about the natural man in his primitive stage..
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:28:36 GMT 10
the prohibition of eating from the tree of good and evil was a testing law, because the evil was not self evident, the evil was in the disobedience of the commandment.
The fall of adam and eve resulted from a pure act of willfull disobedience.
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:32:52 GMT 10
In the fall of man there must be as probation, since man was created for God's glory Is 43:7 and since he could best glorify God by freely choosing to worhip and serve HIM, it was necessary that adam be given the opportunity to make a choice.
For adam and eve ,eden was not only a home in paradise
it was also a place for probation
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:36:04 GMT 10
Yours:huwag po muna natin pagusapan ang new covenant...darating tayo dyan...but first we have to agree on the nature of Man..that because of Adam and Eve's Fall, we were death to SIN....we were apart from God...we are Sinner by nature...we are not included in the "family of God" when we were born because of The Fall...
pero nga merong BUT...at yun ay nakasaad sa New Covenant....of which we are called adopted sons and daughters of God... Hi Ruth, Noted. But your last post just proved my point on what divine filiation means... kuya, may conditions po ang divine filiation...and if you will ask me what it is...i am willing to discuss it in another thread... pati new covenant and why by accepting Christ as Lord and Savior we are then adopted sons and daughters of Christ... I also do not expect you to understand or agree with me...but I am glad that I have the opportunity to exchange views with you... at least we all understand that Moral Law should be consistent with Natural law...but it is not.. Again magkaiba tayo sa paniniwala why the Law was created... the Law was created for us to know we are sinners...at yan po ay nakasaad sa Bible ...according to Paul po yan... the Law was created for us to practice using our free will...dahil di naman tayo ginawang programmable robot ng Dyos... Despite of our nature of being sinners,,,we have inherent desire to be righteous through our conscience... yan po ang paniniwala ko ang thank you for respecting that. AS for divine Filiation para sa akin po this is very personal...it has to be personal so there should be an intimate relationsip between the Father and the son/daugther... there is only one way which is thru Christ...(again if you want I can discuss this with you in another thread). as for those who have never heard of Christ...grace is abundant for them....they are not under the law...but under grace...
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:36:09 GMT 10
to probation of adam and eve was based upon a clear direct commandment a simple law of works.
It needs to be explained how beings who were created with holy natures could sin.
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:37:16 GMT 10
ay linsi, please refer to my last post...
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:37:52 GMT 10
to probation of adam and eve was based upon a clear direct commandment a simple law of works.
It needs to be explained how beings who were created with holy natures could sin.
the Law was created for us to practice using our free will...dahil di naman tayo ginawang programmable robot ng Dyos...
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:41:24 GMT 10
a holy nature is the result of creation, a holy character is the result of testing in which a choice of good is made where a choice of evil is possible. our first parents have holy natures but did not have holy characters.
free choice was necessary for the development of mature holiness and blessedness.
with free choice there is the possibility of wrong choice.
Adam and Eve made the wrong choice with disastrous consequences both for themselves and for the human race..
therefore the first simple *moral law was disobeyed.
my apology in my above reply, i did not mean moral law in asterisk it was not first moral law, it was rather a personal law.
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:47:33 GMT 10
so linsi, if Adam and Eve was on probation at the Garden of Eden before the fall...
and that they were intended to be good until they were tested...
then is it right to say...Adam and Eve's nature is not good? And if they did not disobey, they will be good?
hindi ba ang sabi ng Dyos...Adam you will have dominion over earth? and actually on the last day of creation...God saw everything is Good?
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:49:28 GMT 10
makes sense to me...
tama nga...how can you say you are patient if there is no long suffering?
how can you say you have triumphed over sin if there was no temptation?
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:53:30 GMT 10
naalala ko tuloy verse na we are made RIGHTEOUS thru Christ...
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:54:55 GMT 10
so linsi, if Adam and Eve was on probation at the Garden of Eden before the fall... and that they were intended to be good until they were tested... then is it right to say...Adam and Eve's nature is not good? And if they did not disobey, they will be good? hindi ba ang sabi ng Dyos...Adam you will have dominion over earth? and actually on the last day of creation...God saw everything is Good?
God's creation was good because he is the source of the very good, he intended man to be good until man was tested.., if Adam had obeyed resisting Satan's temptation he would have possessed holy moral character, and would have risen to a new level of blessing and fellowship with God.
a loving God would not have subjected Adam to probation had it not been necessary for Adam's highest possible good.
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 21:57:42 GMT 10
so linsi, if Adam and Eve was on probation at the Garden of Eden before the fall... and that they were intended to be good until they were tested... then is it right to say...Adam and Eve's nature is not good? And if they did not disobey, they will be good? hindi ba ang sabi ng Dyos...Adam you will have dominion over earth? and actually on the last day of creation...God saw everything is Good?
God's creation was good because he is the source of the very good, he intended man to be good until man was tested.., if Adam had obeyed resisting Satan's temptation he would have possessed holy moral character, and would have risen to a new level of blessing and fellowship with God.
a loving God would not have subjected Adam to probation had it not been necessary for Adam's highest possible good.hmmmm...tayo ba in probation din? if yes, bakit daming laws(10 commandments)? lugi naman ata tayo kay Adam and Eve nyan...
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 21:59:13 GMT 10
ruth sorry kung di ko na refer yung last post mo kc marmaing sanga i wanted it more orderly, kaya nga i gave my replies about the natural man in its primitive state,
our parents have holy nature because they are the result of creation, but they donot have holy character yet, holy charcter is the result of testing.. in which a choice of good is made where a choice of evil is possible
i would refer to your post later bigay mo lang page number and quoting me para hindi ako mahelo ..
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:00:22 GMT 10
ahehe ruth wak munang isipin na lugi tayo haha kc kung tutuusin hindi justifiable na mamatay si christ in behalf of us..di ba?
wala siyang kasalanan pero siya ang ginawang sacrifice, so dahan dahan muna..
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 22:02:23 GMT 10
okies! chika lang yun hehehhe!
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:02:53 GMT 10
hmmmm...tayo ba in probation din? if yes, bakit daming laws(10 commandments)? lugi naman ata tayo kay Adam and Eve nyan...
God having forseen adam's failure provided a plan of redemption di ba through the incarnation and vicarious death of his own son a redemption that will include the final defeat of satan who was after all the first winner..
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:04:47 GMT 10
okey itutuloy na ulet, basta meh, sa primitive state of man muna ha dahan dahan at himayin
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 22:14:18 GMT 10
sabi mo linsi:
a holy nature is the result of creation, a holy character is the result of testing in which a choice of good is made where a choice of evil is possible. our first parents have holy natures but did not have holy characters.
ruth na makulit: eh di para mo na rin sinabi na holy nga nature ng MAN or good ang nature of MAN?
nalilito meh..sori po...
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 22:24:17 GMT 10
kuya B:
When we say that man is already by nature a sinner, we are condemning man that he is already incapable of being responsbile for his actions. Why? Because we are saying that it is natural and expected for man to sin - which waters down moral culpability. It would be interpreted as "why need laws anyway if man is deemed to sin"?
ruth: What I am trying to say Kuya B is without God, we can never be made Righteous...we can never triumph over sin...we can never follow all 10 commandments without Him...
without God, we are just merely being legalistic...I will follow the law...kasi law yun e! yun ang sabi ng law...pag di ako sumunod...may parusa...which is very shallow basis ng faith kuya...
we must follow the Law, because we love God, and not following the Law means alienation ..from Him...
we are not condemning anyone Kuya...we are convincing people..that without God...He cannot gain victory over sin...
but first we must accept that we are sinners and Christ will redeem us by accepting Him as Lord and Savior
and by continuing to walk with Him...we will be sanctified..gain the fruits of the Holy Spirit and eventually gain victory over sin...
such is the beauty of God's redemption...we are in our worst state and He promises we can be better...we can be what God intended us to be ...not the other way around (Good naging bad...)
If you are already in your best state (or you are good by nature), then wala na palang dapat pa trabahuhin ang Dyos sayo?
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:30:18 GMT 10
sabi mo linsi: a holy nature is the result of creation, a holy character is the result of testing in which a choice of good is made where a choice of evil is possible. our first parents have holy natures but did not have holy characters. ruth na makulit: eh di para mo na rin sinabi na holy nga nature ng MAN or good ang nature of MAN? nalilito meh..sori po...
yes, by creation, God only made what is good, and man is given a holy nature, from creation, until he was tested, dun lumabas na si adam at eve ay walang holy character, dahil character has to be tested..
lahat ng tao ay nilikha kawangis ng Diyos, he is by nature made good until his character must be tested..mabuti naman talaga po sina adam until they were tested..
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 22:33:27 GMT 10
so human nature ba o character ang gusto discuss ni Kuya B? huwaaa
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:35:51 GMT 10
ok isang magandang example si Enoch
Enoch developed a holy character even after inheriting adamic nature. If adam had obeyed he would have had heaven on earth. Adam's probation is for his highest possible good.
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:38:23 GMT 10
ruth
i would suggest that each and everyone, tally our informations here, of course basa din tayo, maganda nga ito di ba? paki seperate na lang yung para sa meh , para kay supremo, each and everyone, then let us tally afterwards...yung agree ok, yung disagree ok den but at least informations are posted.
let us pray for wisdom from above..
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Post by ruth on Jun 1, 2006 22:41:57 GMT 10
anyway, linsi, I still wanted to maintain my belief na Human nature is sinful...
human nature is discontent...kasi kung hindi bakit pa naghangad si Eve ng wisdom at ayun 2loy natempt pa ni Satan
I agree po..let us pray for wisdom...aral muna meh sa bus pauwi
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:43:35 GMT 10
hi ruth as for me i have given innitial replies about the doctrine of man in its primitive stage pa lang...
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Post by linsi on Jun 1, 2006 22:44:39 GMT 10
anyway, linsi, I still wanted to maintain my belief na Human nature is sinful... human nature is discontent...kasi kung hindi bakit pa naghangad si Eve ng wisdom at ayun 2loy natempt pa ni Satan I agree po..let us pray for wisdom...aral muna meh sa bus pauwi
dadating tayo diyan ruth kc nga adam chose evil...kaya nga man is inclined to sin. God has forseen man's choice kaya nagpadala siya ng redemptor.unang simpleng utos pa lang, pumalpak na ang choice...
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Post by linsi on Jun 2, 2006 1:43:04 GMT 10
anyway, linsi, I still wanted to maintain my belief na Human nature is sinful...
human nature is discontent...kasi kung hindi bakit pa naghangad si Eve ng wisdom at ayun 2loy natempt pa ni Satan
I agree po..let us pray for wisdom...aral muna meh sa bus pauwi
yun pong nature ng tao ay mabuti nung lalangin ng Diyos. lahat ng nilalang niya ay mabuti until it was tested.. and because of Adam's fall, all of us have beeen subject to that curse..
at lahat ng tao ay mas piniling magkasala we can therefore appropriately say that man has never been the same after the fall.
take note:
Adam and Eve had no corrupted moral nature at that point.(before the fall) Thus, the choice they made was unbiased by a disposition to sin, or more "free" than the choices you and I make today
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 2, 2006 10:58:02 GMT 10
Okay, moral law....we all know that moral law was given to man during moses era... Talking about moral law.... After the fall of adam and eve, may moral law na ba? How GOD favored Abel than Cain? Panong naging obedient si Abel than Cain knowing na wala pang moral law noon?
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