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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 2, 2006 12:19:01 GMT 10
how men and women pleased GOD by obeying Him prior giving the moral law to moses BY GOD??? Kuya banshik pakisagot tutal u are more on moral law....
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 12:29:04 GMT 10
Hi Hotty,
Sa iyo muna dahil medyo mahaba yung kay Ruth.
The moment God gave instructions to Man, there in effect is Law - Moral Law. It was further defined through the revelation of the commandents - but Moral law has existed even before.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 12:35:39 GMT 10
kaya parang convinced na ako sa sinasabi ni Linsi that the conscience is the voice of God...He calls us through our conscience...because that is part of Human Nature...we are sinners, apart from God...but He calls us through our conscience...because all of us have inherent desire to be RIGHTEOUS...
mapaMUSLIM ka pa..or atheist or agnostic or whatever pa...we all have inherent desire to be RIGHTEOUS...kaya nasasabi nya we are all sons of God..that we are all good by nature...
Hi Ruth,
Wala akong issue tayo sa nature of conscience being described as the "voice of God".
The issue I was trying to elevate is when "conscience" can be abused (misintepretation, lack of doctrine, values) which makes it a limited moral faculty of discernment for man. Thus, man needs to turn to the Law to affirm what God gave man (conscience) with what God wants (Laws).
If there is no affirmation between conscience and God's Law, it does not mean that the conscience did not participate nor the intellect was absent. It just simply means that a human act happened but man chose to disobey.
This is the reason why the condition moral culpability is important to discuss because it serves the purpose of why conscience is always involved in human acts and why conscience should be used in the proper perspective.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 12:42:10 GMT 10
Yours Hotty: Kuya B.... Tanong po: Nun bang gawin ng Lord ang moral law, nag expect ba siya na susundin ito ng tao?
Hi Hotty,
Yes. It is the plan and design of God that Man gets to do good, obey and love God. The reason why God made laws is not for man to disobey them - but rather for Man to realize how to love and follow God.
To say that God made laws so that man could disobey Him would be contrary to the nature of God which is all good. Why? By creating something like laws which would be meant to make intrinsically evil acts would mean that God has been a "cooperator of evil" because God made something for man to become evil.
This is not the case, because the purpose of Law is for man to do good and not to do evil.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 12:47:44 GMT 10
Yours: kuya B. grammatical error ko lang po yun affiliation.ok agree ako sa difference ng filiation at affiliation.
and as you can see from my previous posts...sa New covenant isinasaad that trough the blood of Jesus by accepting Him as Lord and Savior, we are now adopted sons and daughters of God... but then again..magkaiba pa rin tayo sa stand natin about human nature. so is there a reason pa to discuss conscience further?
to discuss salvation etcetera? to discuss redemption? Hi Ruth,
Noted and thanks.
Yes. Agreed whe have a different understanding on the nature of man. I guess in your case you consider that man is by nature a sinner. I define man by nature is good.
Yes. We can arrive at further discussion through "consistency". if we can define the true nature of man it should be consistent to the nature of his conscience, salvation and redemption. If there is no consistency from the nature of man from his purpose - then maybe the nature which we originally prescribe was lacking.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 12:56:14 GMT 10
kuya B...
mukhang di nyo po nireview ang Genesis...nakasaad po doon ang pattern ng tao...that after The Fall...we are nothing...because we do not have filiation with God....pero hind nya ito ipinagkaait forever...binigyan nya nga lang tayo ng condition.
Nung creation...panahon ng Genesis...panahon ni Adam and Eve...filiation with God does not have any condition...ibingay ito ng kusa kay Adam and Eve na walang kondisyon.
but after that meron na...and as you can see because of the curse...naging pattern na ng tao na mapasama without fellowship with Christ...
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph...pare-pareho ang pattern nila..without personal relationship with God..they were never righteous...without personal relationship with God they were not able to fulfill what God has intended for them...
hindi na po birth right ang Divine filiation after The Fall... Hi Ruth,
Noted on the issue of Genesis. But this is the reason why I have been careful that our interpretation is based on the RCC doctrine of faith.
After the fall we may be considered nothing - but God did reveal a divine plan for the redemption of man which accounted for something. Besides, if the relationship of between Man and God did amount to nothing : (a) why choose your Son to become Man? (b) why establish a covenant with the chosen people? Did the patriarchs/prophets/etc. call God (Yahweh their "Father" - if yes could it be that filiation still existed (c) could it be that a relationship between Man and God still exist?
Yes. You are right. I used the term birth right improperly - thanks for the correction. But what I was trying to establish was that relationship between God and Man may have faltered but relationship even after the fall existed.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 12:59:58 GMT 10
Ruth
let me state it to you that the probationary commandment given to adam was not personal, it was moral, there was no obvious wrong in eating from the forbidden fruit, the fall of adam and eve is the result of disobedience..
i am telling this because God intended man to be good until he was tested.. Hi Linsi,
Dito agree ako sa iyo except sa term "probational".
Sorry, dahil maingat lang ako sa terms....taga review kc ng service levels in real life...
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 13:17:54 GMT 10
kuya, may conditions po ang divine filiation...and if you will ask me what it is...i am willing to discuss it in another thread...
pati new covenant and why by accepting Christ as Lord and Savior we are then adopted sons and daughters of Christ...
I also do not expect you to understand or agree with me...but I am glad that I have the opportunity to exchange views with you...
at least we all understand that Moral Law should be consistent with Natural law...but it is not.. Again magkaiba tayo sa paniniwala why the Law was created... the Law was created for us to know we are sinners...at yan po ay nakasaad sa Bible ...according to Paul po yan...
the Law was created for us to practice using our free will...dahil di naman tayo ginawang programmable robot ng Dyos...
Despite of our nature of being sinners,,,we have inherent desire to be righteous through our conscience...
yan po ang paniniwala ko ang thank you for respecting that.
AS for divine Filiation para sa akin po this is very personal...it has to be personal so there should be an intimate relationsip between the Father and the son/daugther...
there is only one way which is thru Christ...(again if you want I can discuss this with you in another thread).
as for those who have never heard of Christ...grace is abundant for them....they are not under the law...but under grace... Hi Ruth,
Ok lang.... : )
Tungkol sa Moral Law and Natural Law. They are consistent because both are Laws made by God with the purpose of Man to do good and follow Him.
Gaya ng sinabi ni Linsi. Before the Fall, man was in the state of grace and was good. Thus, when God gave man Law - it was not meant for the purpose to make man realize he was sinful but rather allow man to serve his purpose - which is to love, obey and serve the law.
Gaya din ng sinabi ko kay Hotty. God can not contradict His nature being good. If god would create laws in order for man to realize he is evil, it is the same as God being a cooperator to evil which can never happen.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 13:20:42 GMT 10
Yours: to probation of adam and eve was based upon a clear direct commandment a simple law of works. Hi Linsi,
Singit lang...maybe you can make another thread. .. What do you mean by a commandment of works? Why not a commandment of faith?
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 13:23:59 GMT 10
then is it right to say...Adam and Eve's nature is not good? And if they did not disobey, they will be good? Hi Ruth,
The nature of Adam and Eve were good. I did explain that if one is good, one can aspire for "greater" good.
If they did not disobey, it meant that man was following his nature and purpose which is to serve, obey, and love God.
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Post by linsi on Jun 2, 2006 14:56:13 GMT 10
Ruth
let me state it to you that the probationary commandment given to adam was not personal, it was moral, there was no obvious wrong in eating from the forbidden fruit, the fall of adam and eve is the result of disobedience..
i am telling this because God intended man to be good until he was tested..Hi Linsi, Dito agree ako sa iyo except sa term "probational". Sorry, dahil maingat lang ako sa terms....taga review kc ng service levels in real life...
kuya banshik
ok lang mag disagree ka sa term, since you disagree you have the responsibility to disclaim. walang problema sa akin yan ang mas mahalaga yung substance ng buong idea.
I said again "probation"
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Post by linsi on Jun 2, 2006 15:01:54 GMT 10
Yours: to probation of adam and eve was based upon a clear direct commandment a simple law of works.Hi Linsi, Singit lang...maybe you can make another thread. .. What do you mean by a commandment of works? Why not a commandment of faith?
kuya banshik
nasa christian doctrines tayo di ba? christians obviously must have faith in action dahil obviously faith without works is dead. at kung babasahin ang exchanges namin ni ruth, adam and eve has to be tested by their faith through works , hindi naman ito ibang doctrines eh, christian doctrines ang pinag uusapan.
action-v-works
at hindi ito para sa bagong thread para sa akin this is a passing scene bago mag branch out sa kung saan saan.
ang pinaka buod ng pinag uusapan ay ang testing stage ni adam at eve kung KAKAIN SILA O HINDI KAKAIN, ( action, verb)which i am discussing slowly with ruth.
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Post by hottyfecehh on Jun 2, 2006 15:02:15 GMT 10
Hi Hotty, Sa iyo muna dahil medyo mahaba yung kay Ruth. The moment God gave instructions to Man, there in effect is Law - Moral Law. It was further defined through the revelation of the commandents - but Moral law has existed even before. waaaaaaaaa, honga pala kuyang..hehe...Moral Law - when God gave instructions to man...Focus ko kasi is yung sa 10 commandmenst lang... Sige maya uli ang tanong... thanks!
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Post by linsi on Jun 2, 2006 15:45:33 GMT 10
hotty and kuya banshik
makasingit po, and i am requesting hotty like ruth to address me seperately kung sa akin magtatanong susunod, ang intentions ko po ay makasama ng husto si ruth at hotty and even all sa discussions kc na momonopolize namin ni kuya banshik pag kami lang.
ganda naman na lahat ay kasali, hindi baleng may errors, lahat naman para sa meh ay student of the word of God.
so hotty ( para sa meh) pag bukudin tanong po ah para naman kasali lahat at pag medyo malawak pedeng gumawa ng bukod na thread para di halo halo gaya nung ginawa kong bukod about children of God..suggest lang
yun pong moral law ay nag exist lang nung panahon ni moses,kaya nga 10 commandments po, nagsimula kay moses po at iyon ang naging basehan ng moral, ceremonial at pamumuhay ng mga israelitas.
i wanted to agree with you hotty, ang moral law basically ay ang 10 commandments dun nagsimula ang batas para sa israel.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 16:08:24 GMT 10
kuya banshik
ok lang mag disagree ka sa term, since you disagree you have the responsibility to disclaim. walang problema sa akin yan ang mas mahalaga yung substance ng buong idea.
I said again "probation" Hi Linsi,
Thanks. What I meant was I agree with your position except I still need to understand what you meant by "probation". : )
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Post by linsi on Jun 2, 2006 16:13:59 GMT 10
kuya banshik
nasabi ko na kay ruth,about probation balik na lang ako mamaya pag may tanong sila for me..
hotty tama ka, moral law basically 10 commandments ad jan nagsimula ang batas para sa israel..
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 16:33:31 GMT 10
Yours: What I am trying to say Kuya B is without God, we can never be made Righteous...we can never triumph over sin...we can never follow all 10 commandments without Him...
without God, we are just merely being legalistic...I will follow the law...kasi law yun e! yun ang sabi ng law...pag di ako sumunod...may parusa...which is very shallow basis ng faith kuya...
we must follow the Law, because we love God, and not following the Law means alienation ..from Him...
we are not condemning anyone Kuya...we are convincing people..that without God...He cannot gain victory over sin...
but first we must accept that we are sinners and Christ will redeem us by accepting Him as Lord and Savior
and by continuing to walk with Him...we will be sanctified..gain the fruits of the Holy Spirit and eventually gain victory over sin...
such is the beauty of God's redemption...we are in our worst state and He promises we can be better...we can be what God intended us to be ...not the other way around (Good naging bad...)
If you are already in your best state (or you are good by nature), then wala na palang dapat pa trabahuhin ang Dyos sayo?
Hi Ruth,
1. This is the reason why my position states that the Law is defined by God not by man. The same reason why I disagreed with skeptics that good and evil is not relative (perception of the mind) and the ultimate arbiter of good and evil is God.
2. I get your predicament regarding the Law. There is the issue of following God out of fear and the issue of following God out of love.
(a) Fear of God can also be interpreted as fear of disobeying God because you do not want to offend God whom you love so much. (b) Following God out of Love is intepreted as following God because you want to please Him.
But I agree to your point it would be shallow to be too legalistic (as the Pharisees did in the past) and one's motivation of faith is fear of punishment. However, we could not deny that what the Law also provides is positive reinforcement to Man making him realize a path towards God. It is not case of fundamental extremism but rather a practice of the virtues of humility and obedience.
3. It could also be interpreted that Man in its best (perfect state - i.e. before the fall) was in union with God. It was the nature and purpose of Man to be in union with God - not the other way around. Redemption as its term applies was required because from the "good and perfect nature" man fell.
What if man reaches his 'perfect state"? Man would still need God because it is through man's union that man receives and fulfills his purpose and mission. Its not a case of "aayusin pa" but a case of having to receive and achieve more.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 16:40:04 GMT 10
anyway, linsi, I still wanted to maintain my belief na Human nature is sinful...
human nature is discontent...kasi kung hindi bakit pa naghangad si Eve ng wisdom at ayun 2loy natempt pa ni Satan
I agree po..let us pray for wisdom...aral muna meh sa bus pauwi
Hi Ruth,
Ok lang. Time and Reason would be the best judge for everyone here who would want to learn.
Pasingit lang sa last question mo....
Hindi wisdom ang hinangad ni Eve. Nalinlang siya ng demonyo dahil she was tempted that the forbidden fruit would allow them to be "like God". She fell to the temptation of pride.
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 16:42:33 GMT 10
Re: Moral Law, Natural Law, Nature of being a MAN « Reply #134 on Today at 2:45pm » i wanted to agree with you hotty, ang moral law basically ay ang 10 commandments dun nagsimula ang batas para sa israel.
Re: Moral Law, Natural Law, Nature of being a MAN « Reply #99 on Yesterday at 8:41pm »
therefore the first simple moral law was disobeyed. Hi Linsi,
No offense meant. Which is which?
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 17:23:45 GMT 10
banshik:
It also means that God has created an intrinsically evil being which is contrary to His nature being the absolute good. Mas mahirap ito dahil impossibleng gumawa ng masama ang Diyos. Puwede ang Diyos gumawa ng mabuting tao na may kakayahan gumawa ng masama - pero hindi puwede gumawa ang Diyos ng masama dahil hindi natural sa pagiging Diyos ito
ruth:
As the years passed, people began to fill the earth. But when God saw that man's wickedness covered the earth, and that every imagination of his heart was only evil continually—it grieved the Lord.
And the Lord said, "I will destroy mankind, which I created, from the face of the earth." But the Lord looked on Noah with favor. Noah, a righteous man, perfect in his generations, walked with God.
So God said to Noah, "The end of all mankind is coming. Because people have filled the earth with violence, I will destroy them along with the earth.
Man by nature is SINFUL and only thru Christ we are made RIGHTEOUS...during the Old Testament Times...sinabi ng Dyos...wicked and MAN...it became natural for him to SIN because of THE FALL...
and he punished everyone by the GREAT FLOOD....
pero nangako Sya na hindi na Nya uulitin ulit na patayin ang tao thru a flood.
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 17:28:51 GMT 10
banshik:
But man, if truly made under the image of God and by nature is good - it means that the true nature and being of Man is to be with God. Why would man sell his birthright if his purpose is to be in God in Heaven?
ruth:
we were made in the image of God and He intended us to be good. But when Adam and Eve was tested...hindi na good ang mankind...wicked na ang mankind...as what God said when he decided to destory us thru the flood.
Nature po ng man yan...and it never changed even after the New Covenant.
Di naman po nag-create pa ang Dyos ng bagong tao e... But the Lord looked on Noah with favor. Noah, a righteous man, perfect in his generations, walked with God.
He saved Noah...and we became His descendants...but our nature as sinners is andun pa rin.
Noah is righteous because he walked with God. but his nature is wicked too...nangyari lang na he walked with God..kaya sya righteous and perfectin his generations. Kaya sya ay isinave ng Dyos sa flood... Nangako ang Dyos na di Nya uli tayo paparusahan by means of a flodd. But it did not change our nature.
Every time He dispensese grace...paulit ulit ang pagkakasala natin...
and only thru Christ that we can be sanctified...and become what He intended for us..pure and undefiled...
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 17:48:16 GMT 10
Re: Moral Law, Natural Law, Nature of being a MAN « Reply #141 on Today at 4:28pm » we were made in the image of God and He intended us to be good Hi Ruth,
When we say "Nature" of Man, it means the being and essence of man. It defines the elements behind man that serve and explain his humanity.
So when one says that Man is by Nature sinful it means that: (a) God created Man intrinsically evil from the start (b) The purpose of man is to sin or create evil
But you described it yourself that God created Man in His own image which attests to the position of consistency. God being absolute good can not and will never create an intrinsically evil being. What was created was man who was by nature good (resembling God) but limited in its nature by allowing itself to disobey God and sin.
In short, sinful ways of man happened after the fact that God already created Man. In fact, Man was in union with God from the start until during Man's fall. Thus, man enjoyed his perfect nature (goodness) and not imperfect nature (evil) from the start.
The issue of man's sinful ways is noted. But man's sinful ways can not change man's true purpose, his essence and being - which is to follow and serve God.
There is no issue in Man needing God in order to be "righteous". But Man's need for God in order to be righteous does not necessarily mean that Man is evil by nature. The same manner that if Man is in perfect state (goodness) that Man would no longer need God.
The condition of needing God to be righteous is not exclusive to evil people. Even upright and good people need God and they also practice righteousness. Why??? As linis said...because Man was created by nature good and Man's purpose is create goodness.
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 17:50:54 GMT 10
anyway, linsi, I still wanted to maintain my belief na Human nature is sinful... human nature is discontent...kasi kung hindi bakit pa naghangad si Eve ng wisdom at ayun 2loy natempt pa ni Satan I agree po..let us pray for wisdom...aral muna meh sa bus pauwi Hi Ruth, Ok lang. Time and Reason would be the best judge for everyone here who would want to learn. Pasingit lang sa last question mo.... Hindi wisdom ang hinangad ni Eve. Nalinlang siya ng demonyo dahil she was tempted that the forbidden fruit would allow them to be "like God". She fell to the temptation of pride. God told the man and woman that it was their job to take care of their new home. God blessed them, saying, "All this is for you. Help yourself to anything you like. But never touch the tree in the middle of the Garden. That tree gives knowledge of good and evil. The day you eat its fruit, you will die." God did not mean that Adam and Eve would drop down dead the moment they ate the fruit from the tree. He meant that in time they would die with out His Spirit dwelling in them. One day, Eve was gathering berries for dinner when she heard a silky voice behind her. "Has God told you that you can eat the fruit from all the trees?" the voice asked softly. Eve turned around to see a snake talking to her. "God has told us we can eat all the fruit except for what grows on The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," Eve told the serpent. "Oh come now, that's silly! I hardly think such a lovely fruit would do you any harm," the serpent lied. "God knows that if you eat from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you'll become just like God, and will be able to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong."
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Post by bangzhik101 on Jun 2, 2006 17:51:00 GMT 10
Hi Ruth,
Point to ponder.
God is all good.
Why would God create a creature whose being and purpose is to do evil?
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 17:55:30 GMT 10
kuya B:
The condition of needing God to be righteous is not exclusive to evil people. Even upright and good people need God and they also practice righteousness. Why??? As linis said...because Man was created by nature good and Man's purpose is create goodness.
ruth:
Noone can be perfect or upright if compared with Christ. Kaya nga sinasabi na ang world ngayon is Fallen...this world is doomed for destruction. We can only aspire for righteousness but we can never be righteous on our own merits.
When you say that there are upright and righteous people also needs God...then it means...upright and righteous na sila without God. So what do they need God for?
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 17:57:44 GMT 10
Hi Ruth, Point to ponder. God is all good. Why would God create a creature whose being and purpose is to do evil? Kuya...Ang sabi nya: He created us in His own image...He intended as to be Good... but when we were tested...foolish pala tayo and wicked... but He never said we will be on our foolish and wicked state for eternity...we can still fulfill what He intended us to become... through The Refiner's Fire....alam ko pa alam nyo ang kanta na ito. ....
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 18:03:35 GMT 10
kuya B:
created was man who was by nature good (resembling God) but limited in its nature by allowing itself to disobey God and sin.
ruth: kuya we were created with His intention for us to be good...and He created us without limiting us...kaya nga tayo binigyan ng free will...
kaya nya sinabi na you can eat all the fruits of the trees in the garden exept one...
kung nilimitahan nya ang nature natin...then sana di na lang sya naglagay ng Law for us to practice our free will
at bakit nya pa pinabayaan na tuksuhin tayo ni Satan? bakit di na lang nya pinigilan agad si Satan at dun palang sa time na tinetempt si EVE? para di na tayo nagkasala...para namaintain ang nature natin na pagiging Good...if that is our nature talaga?
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 18:04:45 GMT 10
But when God saw that man's wickedness covered the earth, and that every imagination of his heart was only evil continually—it grieved the Lord.nagsisi pa yata sya...
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 18:15:55 GMT 10
Yours Hotty: Kuya B.... Tanong po: Nun bang gawin ng Lord ang moral law, nag expect ba siya na susundin ito ng tao? Hi Hotty, Yes. It is the plan and design of God that Man gets to do good, obey and love God. The reason why God made laws is not for man to disobey them - but rather for Man to realize how to love and follow God. To say that God made laws so that man could disobey Him would be contrary to the nature of God which is all good. Why? By creating something like laws which would be meant to make intrinsically evil acts would mean that God has been a "cooperator of evil" because God made something for man to become evil. This is not the case, because the purpose of Law is for man to do good and not to do evil. sa tingin ko hindi nya expected na tayo ay susunod. He gave us free will para tayo ang magdesisyon kung tayo ay susunod o hindi. He intended us to obey and love Him. But we did not obey Him until we realized that without Him we are nothing. He did not cooperate with Satan by allowing Satan to tempt us. He just allowed us to be able to use our free will...makinig ba sa Dyos o makinig ke Satan? Even before He created Adam and Eve..meron ng mga angels at fallen angels...when He created the angels...walang tests kaya naging mayabang kaya naging palalo at gustong maging mas makapangyarihan pa kesa sa Dyos...and The Fall of Adam and Eve is part of the divine plan. Para masugpo na rin ang mga fallen angels na ito once and for all. when He created mankind..He intended them to be good...but first mankind must be tested...but mankind failed sa unang test pa lang...but because of God's love for us as His love for all His creations...binigyan pa rin tayo ng maraming chance na magkamali...so that we will know that He is wise...more powerful...at tayo ay maghangad na bumalik sa Kanya at di na muling bumalik sa pagiging fallen...after He refined us to become perfect like Him...
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Post by ruth on Jun 2, 2006 18:37:03 GMT 10
In short, He created Adam and Eve and made them live in perfect bliss in the Garden of Eden...in order for mankind to know what it is like to live in perfect union with God.
He gave us free will..para di naman tayo robot.
He gave us the Law..in order for us to practice our free will.
He allowed Satan to tempt us and He did not stop us on our tracks when we are sinning...so that we will know the error of our ways of our wickedness...
and therefore,..sabihin natin ayaw ko na magkasala...kasi it grieves Him...and I want to be in perfect union with God and live again in paradise.
Once we know the pattern of our wicked ways...we will know that without Christ...we can never be rigtheous...never perfect...so parati tayong titingin sa Kanya.
Hindi ko naman po sinasabi na tayong lahat ay magkasala para malaman natin ang divine plan na ito. We only have to read the Bible...and read the experiences of these ancient men and women.
Paulit ulit na ipinapakita ng Bible na without God, His intentions for us will never be fulfilled.
As you can see, human nature is human nature...whether thousands of years before or after Christ.
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