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Post by rowtide on Feb 12, 2009 2:37:40 GMT 10
Jan 30, 2009, 7:10am, Always wrote: Heto ang dapat natin tandaan na ang langet ay nandoon na pero ang impiyerno ay wala pa dahil mag-i-exist lang ang impiyerno on judgment day. What a very interesting topic. Wala pa palang impyerno ngayon? Fire-
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Post by mrExdobal on Feb 12, 2009 23:26:17 GMT 10
Jan 30, 2009, 7:10am, Always wrote: Heto ang dapat natin tandaan na ang langet ay nandoon na pero ang impiyerno ay wala pa dahil mag-i-exist lang ang impiyerno on judgment day. What a very interesting topic. Wala pa palang impyerno ngayon? Fire- Paglilinaw lamang Always. Ang pagkaka alam ko may impiyerno na kahit nung bago dumating si Kristo, ito ay ay ang Lukas 16:22-31. Sa Lumang Tipan ( Old Testament) ito ay ang tinatawag na "sheol at sa Bagong Tipan ( New Testament ) naman ay "hades".
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brnd
Adolescent
Posts: 86
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Post by brnd on Feb 13, 2009 1:20:28 GMT 10
Hell means grave and it exists.
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Post by Always on Feb 13, 2009 14:15:20 GMT 10
Hell means grave and it exists.
HUH? Because this is what you posted on Jan. 3rd from the original thread:
[/b]death is a sleep during which the "dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). This view maintains that the person has no conscious form of existence until the resurrection, either at the second coming of Jesus (in the case of the righteous) or after the millennium of Revelation 20 (in the case of the wicked). Because of this view, no hell currently exists and that the wicked will be destroyed at the end of time. [/color]
So?
[/b][/color]
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brnd
Adolescent
Posts: 86
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Post by brnd on Feb 16, 2009 12:22:57 GMT 10
Jan 30, 2009, 7:10am, Always wrote: Heto ang dapat natin tandaan na ang langet ay nandoon na pero ang impiyerno ay wala pa dahil mag-i-exist lang ang impiyerno on judgment day.
You are confusing readers in P7 about the definition of hell .
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Post by Always on Feb 19, 2009 3:06:13 GMT 10
Brnd: "You are confusing readers in P7 about the definition of hell ."
Mine: Am I now?
Because I'm pretty sure that I have deeper meanings of the word than you do. This will take long but please bear with me in my reply to MrExdobal. ----- MrExDobal: "Paglilinaw lamang Always. Ang pagkaka alam ko may impiyerno na kahit nung bago dumating si Kristo, ito ay ay ang Lukas 16:22-31. Sa Lumang Tipan ( Old Testament) ito ay ang tinatawag na "sheol at sa Bagong Tipan ( New Testament ) naman ay "hades". " Mine: Nice of you for being specific of verses & Chapter of of the Book of Luke because if my recollection is correct, that is the only verse wherein a person died and went to hell(hades). Or is it?
Citation from New Standard Version:
Luke 16:23 "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
The story of the man being buried and went to hell is nothing but a parable; but as it is, all parables are of course true to life which could easily substitute into common everyday experience. Just like the first nine verses of Chapter 16, it is about the Parable of the Shrewd Manager or Unjust Steward(ship); whereas verses 19-31 is about the Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus or the poor man who God has helped.
What I am trying to say here MrExdobal is that Hell or Hades must not be taken as a literal narrative but as in symbolic terms that we humans can relate to. Ito ay isang parabola lamang na kinukwento kung ano ang pwedeng mangyayari sa mga taong mayayaman na nagpakasarap lamang sa kanilang pansarili samantalang ang mga mahihirap ay tumitingala sa kanila habang ang mga tuta nito ay lalong nagpaphirap sa mga dinadama nilang kahirapan.
Let me use a replacement game:
Luk 16:19 "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 "And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, Luk 16:21 "who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
- Luk 16:19 "There was Marcos who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 "And at his gate was laid a poor man named Smokey Mountain, covered with disappointments, Luk 16:21 "who desired to be fed with what fell from the president's promises. Moreover, even the subordinates came and worsened his disappointmens.
Now, after reading replacement 1, please concentrate on #2 & #3.- Luk 16:19 "There was ERAP who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
- Luk 16:19 "There was GMA who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Are you following me on this? Plese read the next verses.
Luk 16:22 "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
The verses tell us of what will happen to sinners when they die - THEY GO TO HELL!
But wait a minute, something is missing here and do you know what it is between 16:22 & 16:23
Not yet? This is the reason why it is called a parable and the symbolism of the story by fast track conclusion. As you can see and probably have known beforehand that when a person dies, he or she does not go directly to heaven or hell after being buried, but he or she goes into a deep stasis or a sort of sleep and will only be resurrected on Judgment Day on the second coming of the Lord.
part 1 of 2
Next:
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Post by leanne. on Feb 19, 2009 7:27:02 GMT 10
Aba ang ganda yata nang nangyari dito at mukhang humahaba ang parable of the rich man and lazarus. Walang alisan sa Luke 16 ha. 1.Ang tanong ko bakit laging nagtuturo si Jesus at ang gamit nya ay parables? Always, yung rich man ay tormented dun ha di ba sabi nya: 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may did the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue' e di torment nga. 2. Parable ba tong Luke 16: 22-32? Sabi ng iba hindi. Kung parable siya, e di hindi totoo si Abraham? At hindi totoo yung Abraham's bosom? Isang kwento lang pala para sa moral lesson. wahhhhhhh walang alisan sa topic ha. Asan kaya si supremo para tatlo sila nila migy at always. Ate linsi jan ka?
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Post by Always on Feb 19, 2009 11:54:22 GMT 10
Aba ang ganda yata nang nangyari dito at mukhang humahaba ang parable of the rich man and lazarus. Walang alisan sa Luke 16 ha. 1.Ang tanong ko bakit laging nagtuturo si Jesus at ang gamit nya ay parables?
Kasi Leanne noon mga panahon na yun ay alapang mga sinehan at ang uso lang noon ay kwentuahan ng mga myths, fables, at mga legends as fom of entertainment pero Jesus Christ's most common way of teachng moral atitude and religious principle is throug the usage of parables. It is almost the same as the replacement game that I used here as a sort of word-pictures in order for other people to understand it faster.
In a way, Jesus Christ used images and characters taken in everyday life to create a play or drama to illustrate his message for all peope in every walk of life (old, young, rich, poor, learne~d, nd the unlearned) for everyone to understand who God really is and how to attain His kingdom. Lord Jesus used parables to point to another order of reality to which His listeners could easily communicate with illustrations even though hidden, yet visible to those who had eyes to see and ears to hear. Always, yung rich man ay tormented dun ha di ba sabi nya: 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may did the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue' e di torment nga.
Sa story ni Jesus ay OO tormented siya dahil ganito ang magiging consequence sa mga taong nagkakasala. Father Abraham is an emblematic image used by Jesus Christ to remind every person of his life story handed down to Isaac and in turn handed down to Israel. And the usage of Lazarus had the proper connotation to the story which I will be explaining later. 2. Parable ba tong Luke 16: 22-32? Sabi ng iba hindi. Kung parable siya, e di hindi totoo si Abraham? At hindi totoo yung Abraham's bosom? Isang kwento lang pala para sa moral lesson. Sabi lang ng iba yun kasi they're taking the story in a literal form. The clue which states that Jesus' story is a parable is the word "bosom" itself. Yes, the "s***" because in the olden days bosom signified the term in a matriarchal theme. In short, the phrase "in the bosom of Abraham" is nothing but an intriguing and yet a very powerful visual metaphor representing Abraham as a "MOTHER of all nations" and yet he was the most venerated of patriarchs.
Take the case of the Philippines, we do not call Pilipinas our fatherland dibah but ginagalang ito bilang ating INANG-bayan na siyang binabalik balikan dahil sa pag-aaruga niya sa atin Now, you can take that as literal but with anthropomorphism attached with it.
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Post by violet on Feb 19, 2009 22:47:21 GMT 10
Pede bang gamiting terms sa tagalog ng bosom is breast na lang or dibdib or pectoralis majoris?
Always ha!
ay may kwento meh, high scholl pa lang ako, e roman catholic me nun at mahal na araw, so tatlo kaming sumubok na basahin ang pasyon e dumating sa punto na may s din dun yung term na ginamit ni Always , at first di namin pansin nakow ang daming mga talata na may ganung word
hindi kami naka concentrate e may kasama kaming isang guy- bigla kaming sabay sabay huminto at nanginginig na lahat sa pigil ng tawa
nyahaha
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Post by delta on Feb 19, 2009 23:11:04 GMT 10
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Post by bert on Feb 21, 2009 19:10:12 GMT 10
Hello P7rs
Let us go back to the topic. I will post based on the article i've just read about Luke 16:19-32. The Rich Man and Lazarus for me is a parable and at the same time not a parable.
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Post by bert on Feb 21, 2009 19:18:55 GMT 10
In a way, Jesus Christ used images and characters taken in everyday life to create a play or drama to illustrate his message for all peope in every walk of life (old, young, rich, poor, learne~d, nd the unlearned) for everyone to understand who God really is and how to attain His kingdom. Lord Jesus used parables to point to another order of reality to which His listeners could easily communicate with illustrations even though hidden, yet visible to those who had eyes to see and ears to hear. I will quote Always as having said right about a parable to use as illustration relating to everyday life teaching certain moral lesson and its liken to a fiction, it is not real but taken something in real life. But before i proceed there is something in the bible which says "wailing ang gnashing of teeth" also there are different kinds of meaning about hell. I also said that Luke 16:19-32 is at the same time considered not as a parable because death is real and suffering is real for the wicked dead. I will further post after your answers.
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Post by bert on Feb 21, 2009 19:29:54 GMT 10
The article which i agree said.
I wish to speak tonight on the subject entitled "THE PLACE CALLED HELL". Some people have said that this account in Luke's gospel is in fact a parable. But that is not true. Because in the parables that Jesus Christ used, proper names were never given.
And yet the Bible tells us that there was a certain beggar named Lazarus. There was a certain rich man, not just a rich man, but a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and linen, and he fared sumptuously every day.....and there was a certain beggar, this wasn't a parable, there was a certain beggar, and his name was Lazarus.
In all of the 29 or 30 parables that Jesus shared, not ONE time was a proper name used. Parables never contained proper names.
The Bible tells us there is a place called HELL. And it describes it absolutely perfectly, to a T. The man said, I don't want my brothers to come to this place, this terrible place, this place of torments.
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Post by leanne. on Feb 22, 2009 4:35:54 GMT 10
Hmmmm.
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Post by linsi on Feb 23, 2009 15:59:21 GMT 10
Quite interesting! Isa pa to, i was also wondering kung itong Luke 16:19-31 ay "parable" nga because we always see it even in so many writings the title which goes "The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"
College pa lamang meh i was wondering talaga, opening my bible last night, the title just goes as "The Rich Man and Lazarus!" hay ang daming openings talaga when it comes to debate and discussions. Like the story of Jonah, one can argue that this is a parable because of a "whale" but then tuloy natin to, very interesting!
One thing more "hell" have several meanings and the greek translations and more translations give people the disadvantage of arguing how to describe it! As a matter of fact there is Sheol, Hades and Gehenna which are all definitions of hell.
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Post by linsi on Feb 23, 2009 16:10:30 GMT 10
Pick your choice kung anong hell yun
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Post by bert on Feb 24, 2009 0:49:04 GMT 10
Pick your choice kung anong hell yun
The word that Jesus Christ used here for HELL, is the word Gehenna. This is a Greek word that means 'the place of departed spirits'. The Valley of Hinnom, Jerusalem It is taken from the word Hinnom, or Valley of Hinnom. The word Hinnom means ' wailing', the actual meaning of the word is ' wailing' The Valley of Hinnom was a very narrow valley, that lay south and west of Jerusalem, and Jesus used it as a type of eternal punishment. The Valley of Hinnom burned day and night. A real place, lying south and west of the city of Jerusalem, a narrow valley. In Old Testament times, it was used for sacrifice. They sacrificed animals there. And when they sacrificed the animals, there would be constant bleating and constant howling of these animals. This is why Jesus Christ said in the gospels, that there shall be 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. For in the Valley of Hinnom, in the Old Testament times, there was constant sacrifice, with animals being slaughtered. If you were near a place where many animals were slaughtered, a constant wailing sound would come from that place. And Jesus drew upon that. He pointed to the Valley of Hinnom when he spoke about Hell. Gehenna, taken from the word Hinnom, which means 'wailing'. And there shall be 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. (weeping and wailing.) In New Testament times, Gehenna was a place where garbage was burned. And the garbage burned day and night. The Valley of Hinnom became the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Now, in this comprehensive study I wish to share with you some powerful truths concerning Hell. The place that is called Hell.
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Post by rafael on Feb 24, 2009 1:50:08 GMT 10
One thing more "hell" have several meanings and the greek translations and more translations give people the disadvantage of arguing how to describe it! As a matter of fact there is Sheol, Hades and Gehenna which are all definitions of hell.
That's the trouble. Loopholes. Christianity divides and further sub-divides itself. That is the reason why skeptics keep on challenging the veracity and inerrancy of the bible.
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Post by Always on Feb 24, 2009 16:01:25 GMT 10
Hello!
First of all, I would like to thank you, Liberte, for joining us and be a ka-P7 family member.
That is quite an article; and Pastor Max Solbrekken did a good job in picking against the belief of Arianism. This is not to say that he is wrong, but he is not correct either. It can be likened to a half-empty/half-full scenario because either way is true. The reason behind this is that a parable can either be with a proper name or a common name.
WHY?
Almost all evangelists do not notice it but most of the parables of Jesus Christ come with a proper name. Take the Parable of the Unjust Judge in the Book of Luke for instant, the parable did not mention of just any god, it mentioned the proper name of that true god - our LORD GOD. The name of God is in capitalized form which dictates that it is a proper name.
What is a Proper Name?
The name of God is in the Proper Noun and this is denoted by the capital "G" the most basic teaching we all learned in our elementary grammar days.
* www.englishclub.com/grammar/nouns-proper.htm
- god
- country
- food
- tv station
- religion
- God
- Philippines
- Spaghetti
- Abs-Cbn
- Atheism
There is also a reasoning that if hell does not exist then God does not exist too. But before I answer that, let me remind you of ...- Physical Death
- Resurrection
- Judgment Day
- Placement either to Door #[1] Heaven or to Door #[2] Hell
Jesus' Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus is narrated in order for mankind to know what will they reap in the future of what they sow in their lifetime. Jesus tells us the consequences of causality. IMO, hell does not exist yet in our physical realm but it is already been prepared in the spiritual realm by God. Remember the Word in the spiritual realm? Do you also remember the Word became Flesh? And that Flesh showed up in the physical realm in order to save us from our consequences.
Thus in essence, Hell exists in the same manner until Judgment Day; and when the New Heaven & New Earth is already upon us, which of course are still in the spiritual realm.
NEXT:
And while waiting for that nest episode, please read this modern day parable that is narrated with Proper names. Please read it 'til the end.
* www.judaismvschristianity.com/parable.htm
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Post by bert on Feb 25, 2009 17:48:35 GMT 10
Hello!
First of all, I would like to thank you, Liberte, for joining us and be a ka-P7 family member.
That is quite an article; and Pastor Max Solbrekken did a good job in picking against the belief of Arianism. This is not to say that he is wrong, but he is not correct either. It can be likened to a half-empty/half-full scenario because either way is true. The reason behind this is that a parable can either be with a proper name or a common name.
WHY?
Almost all evangelists do not notice it but most of the parables of Jesus Christ come with a proper name. Take the Parable of the Unjust Judge in the Book of Luke for instant, the parable did not mention of just any god, it mentioned the proper name of that true god - our LORD GOD. The name of God is in capitalized form which dictates that it is a proper name.
What is a Proper Name?
The name of God is in the Proper Noun and this is denoted by the capital "G" the most basic teaching we all learned in our elementary grammar days.
* www.englishclub.com/grammar/nouns-proper.htm
- god
- country
- food
- tv station
- religion
- God
- Philippines
- Spaghetti
- Abs-Cbn
- Atheism
There is also a reasoning that if hell does not exist then God does not exist too. But before I answer that, let me remind you of ...- Physical Death
- Resurrection
- Judgment Day
- Placement either to Door #[1] Heaven or to Door #[2] Hell
Jesus' Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus is narrated in order for mankind to know what will they reap in the future of what they sow in their lifetime. Jesus tells us the consequences of causality. IMO, hell does not exist yet in our physical realm but it is already been prepared in the spiritual realm by God. Remember the Word in the spiritual realm? Do you also remember the Word became Flesh? And that Flesh showed up in the physical realm in order to save us from our consequences.
Thus in essence, Hell exists in the same manner until Judgment Day; and when the New Heaven & New Earth is already upon us, which of course are still in the spiritual realm.
NEXT:
And while waiting for that nest episode, please read this modern day parable that is narrated with Proper names. Please read it 'til the end.
* www.judaismvschristianity.com/parable.htm
Hello Always- Let me post the rest of the article first.
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Post by bert on Feb 25, 2009 17:53:24 GMT 10
Let me post the rest of the article first.
In New Testament times, Gehenna was a place where garbage was burned. And the garbage burned day and night. The Valley of Hinnom became the garbage dump of Jerusalem.
Whenever you went by the Valley of Hinnom you would see the fire and smoke, and when Jesus Christ spoke about Lazarus and the rich man - even if it had been a parable, which it wasn't - it was a true story. Even if it had been a parable, what better illustration could Jesus have used of Hell, than by pointing to the Valley of Hinnom saying that this is what its is going to be like.
Even if these Scriptures (Luke 16:19-31) were a parable, which we have proven they were not, it still points to eternal suffering.
The garbage dump in Jerusalem never went out, year after year after year. In the time of Jesus' earthly Ministry it was used as a dump. This was a place of wailing, where the fire was constantly stoked and the flames leaped in the air, with the smoke rising continually. And Jesus Christ spoke of this again and again through the Bible.
Now a parable is an allegorical representation of something that is real, in nature, in human affairs, from which a moral is drawn. A parable is something in real life. It is a representation of something real, from the real life which draws or shows you a certain moral, and its a fictitious account. It is something that isn't real, but is taken from something in real life.
The word that Jesus Christ used here for HELL, is the word Gehenna. This is a Greek word that means 'the place of departed spirits'.
It is taken from the word Hinnom, or Valley of Hinnom. The word Hinnom means ' wailing', the actual meaning of the word is ' wailing'.
The Valley of Hinnom was a very narrow valley, that lay south and west of Jerusalem, and Jesus used it as a type of eternal punishment.
The Valley of Hinnom burned day and night. A real place, lying south and west of the city of Jerusalem, a narrow valley. In Old Testament times, it was used for sacrifice. They sacrificed animals there. And when they sacrificed the animals, there would be constant bleating and constant howling of these animals.
This is why Jesus Christ said in the gospels, that there shall be 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. For in the Valley of Hinnom, in the Old Testament times, there was constant sacrifice, with animals being slaughtered.
In New Testament times, Gehenna was a place where garbage was burned. And the garbage burned day and night. The Valley of Hinnom became the garbage dump of Jerusalem.
Whenever you went by the Valley of Hinnom you would see the fire and smoke, and when Jesus Christ spoke about Lazarus and the rich man - even if it had been a parable, which it wasn't - it was a true story. Even if it had been a parable, what better illustration could Jesus have used of Hell, than by pointing to the Valley of Hinnom saying that this is what its is going to be like.
Even if these Scriptures (Luke 16:19-31) were a parable, which we have proven they were not, it still points to eternal suffering.
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Post by bert on Feb 25, 2009 17:59:30 GMT 10
What the Bible Says about HELL And Related Terms:
1. Sheol:
In the Old Testament it usually means place of the departed spirits Psalms 16:10
2. Hades:
Usually means place of the departed spirits in NT Acts 2:27
3. Tartarus:
The deepest abyss of Hades prepared for the Devil and his angels Mattjew 25:41-46
4. Grave [QUEBER In Hebrew]:
"he was buried in the grave of his father" 2Sa 17:23
NOTE: SHEOL and HADES occasionally can be translated "grave" but not always. QUEBER always means "grave" where the body goes. Sheol, Hades, and Queber are not used interchangeably.
When the Jehovah's Witnesses were only small in number they believed that they were the only ones who would inhabit Heaven. They misinterpreted the Scripture about the 144,000 in heaven, thinking that that is going to be the total population entering that holy City.
Now, that they have many more members than 144,000, they had to change their doctrine to say that the rest of them have to live on the earth for eternity! They can't back track on that one because the first 144,00 might not like it. They says there is NO hell but they say there is a heaven.
Did you know that in the Holy Scriptures, for every verse that speaks about Heaven in the New Testament there are 10 verses that speak about hell? These are the absolute facts.
to be continued
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Post by Always on Feb 25, 2009 21:05:37 GMT 10
"In New Testament times, Gehenna was a place where garbage was burned. And the garbage burned day and night. The Valley of Hinnom became the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Whenever you went by the Valley of Hinnom you would see the fire and smoke, and when Jesus Christ spoke about Lazarus and the rich man - even if it had been a parable, which it wasn't - it was a true story. Even if it had been a parable, what better illustration could Jesus have used of Hell, than by pointing to the Valley of Hinnom saying that this is what its is going to be like. Even if these Scriptures (Luke 16:19-31) were a parable, which we have proven they were not, it still points to eternal suffering." Hello Liberte!
Actually, Pastor Solbrekken did not prove in any way that said scriptures in the Book of Luke specifically chapter 16 verses 19-31 was not a parable. He did not take into account that most parables by Jesus Christ were narrated with a proper name(noun) as I pointed out from my previous posts. If he had analyzed that it could be either one of the two, then, it could be taken into account as true in a more meaningful sense or just like the passage in Deuteronomy 15:11.
The narration of Jesus Christ about the Rich Man & Lazarus is nothing but the causality of what will mankind achieve in the future - either go to hell or to heaven. But not after Judgment Day. You must not deny yourself the fact that nobody can bypass JD because all the people who were dead before would be resurrected first to face judgment. This is the reason why nobody goes to hell right away without facing judgment of the Lord.
This is also the mistake of Pastor Solbrekken using mistranslated Hebrew words. I will explain that later but the point I am making now is, the Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus is a narration done in order for mankind to have a glimpse of the future as liken in Mattthew 13:3 & in Psalm 126:5. It is what the future holds if even though you have everything in life and rich in every way but afar in faith in the Lord, you gain nothing (Jeremiah 12:13) than a person who is poor and yet has the fulness of faith, gains all that relates to the Love of God (Deuteronomy 15:4).
Did you know ...
that the concept of hell in Biblical Hebrew is non-existent? Oh yes it is true that there is no such thing even in modern Hebrew. As I pointed out previously that my next issue would be the phrase "Go to Hell." because the most common usage in Hebrew way is as an Expression; this by convention is translated as Lekh I'azazzel or Go to Azazel. BUT Azazel does not really mean Hell at all. It is a place in physical form, a cliff as mentioned in Leviticus 16:8-10.
The next word most often used to translate Hell is "Gey Hinom" or "Ge Hinnom" which is usually translated in English as Gehenna. It too is a name of real place in physical sense as what Pastor Solbrekken had posted; but modern-day Gehenna now is a beautiful place ... so if you have been there to visit the place, you may as well say that "I have been to Hell!" and "What a beautiful place it was!" as patterned to the pastor's mistranslation of the place.
Do you think it is safe to say that ...
Hell existed there before but not today? And let me point out the misconversion of the usage. Beside its literal translation, Gey Hinom can refer to any terrible place (But not to a place where evil & bad people go when they die.) This is what the good pastor missed in his interpretation because its allogorical meaning comes from its history about the Canaanites...
Uvanu et Bamot haba'al lisrof et b'neyhem ba'esh 'olot laba'al
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal...
Complete reading: Jeremiah 19:2-5
... yes, it is in the History of Canaanites on how they sacrificed their children to Ba'al.
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Post by Always on Feb 25, 2009 22:13:32 GMT 10
"NOTE: SHEOL and HADES occasionally can be translated "grave" but not always. QUEBER always means "grave" where the body goes. Sheol, Hades, and Queber are not used interchangeably."
Sheol is rendered as Hades throughout the Septuagint adopted by Greek -speaking Christians. When Hades is used in the NT, Christians understand this to be the same as Sheol in OT. This had been the basis of the KJV translation of Sheol as Hell as in most cases to which the Greek translation was rendered that way. But not so in the original Hebrew nor in the Qu'ran which is the offsring of Judaism; because the moslem world has no explicit description of Hell.
Nonetheless, Gehenna in the Bible or Jehenna in Quran is nothing but an open pit as a burial of the war dead. Queber as in grave but Jehenna is liken to an open cemetery of the dead. And after 638 BC, the place became a dumpsite for burning rubbish of Jerusalem.
Fires were kept burning and Gey Hinom (Gehenna/Jehenna) became the Valley of Garbage Dump for Jerusalem. The bodies of dead criminals and carcasses of dead animal were also thrown there.
Related topics:
www.pbs.org/kcet/globaltribe/countries/phi_payatas.html
And the very first statement reads as follow: Entering Payatas is like spiraling into Dante's Inferno.
Meaning: web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/
Do you now think that such a physical place(Gehenna) is the place of eternal torment for sinners?
Because if you read the following Books in the Holy Bible, they did not mention anything about spiritual hell of eternal torment as in the Lake of Fire.- Joshua 15:8 / 18:16
- 2nd Chronicles 28:3 / 33:6
- 2nd Kings 23:10
- Nehemiah 11:30
- Jeremiah 7:31-32 / 19:2-6 & 32:35
I hope you can now digest that spiritual hell only exist for now and not until judgment day.
Jesus's narration of hell is only a symbolic representation of what is yet to come in spiritual sense. And this is the very reason why it is called an allegory.
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Post by Always on Feb 25, 2009 22:40:11 GMT 10
"When the Jehovah's Witnesses were only small in number they believed that they were the only ones who would inhabit Heaven. They misinterpreted the Scripture about the 144,000 in heaven, thinking that that is going to be the total population entering that holy City." Perhaps, the very reason as to why congregations of JW do not believe in hell is because Hades or hell in its english translation derives from a Greek name of a mythological Greek god named Ha'des, the Greek king of the underworld and the Greek god of the dead, a very far cry from the realm of Lucifer. This is probably the reason of its very minute similarity to Judaism for not believing in hell; but there exists a difference though. JW does not entirely believe in hell but--in Judaism, it is a belief of what has yet to come in Halakhic Expression.
Well, if you see one JW, just tell him or her to just go to hell or go to Payatas, Quezon City.
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Post by leanne. on Feb 26, 2009 5:55:39 GMT 10
Teka teka Always, lalo akong nalito wahhhhhhhhhhh bago ka pumunta kay Lazarus, ilan ba to, may Lazarus na binuhay din, balik sa hell. kse ang hell gehena nga eh yung second death pero may sheol nga at hades na hell din, so may hell na pero wala pa yung second death isa pa wala nang noun noun di ba sabi nga ni ate linsi yung kwento ni jonah parang pedeng parable dahil gawa nung whale pero hindi din, kaya ano ba talaga mga kuya Isa pa pede bang yung 144,000 ilagay sa topic na heaven nasali tuloy dito mga JW wahhh pa rin
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Post by leanne. on Feb 26, 2009 6:02:47 GMT 10
Dante's Inferno? Purgatoryo yun eh wahh
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Post by Always on Feb 26, 2009 11:31:50 GMT 10
Dante's Inferno? Purgatoryo yun eh wahh
Sa Divine Comedy po ni Dante Aligheiri ay may tatlong klase ng canticas o canticle: Inferno (Hell), Purgatorio (Purgatory), and Paradiso (Heaven).
Kaya if ang Gehenna na basurahan ng Jerusalem noon at inihambing ni Jesus Christ sa Impierno ay maaring din tawagin ang Payatas na isang mala-impiyernong lugar sa dahilang ganito ang magiging buhay ng isang tao na nagparaya lamang sa mundo. Kaya hindi man ito totoong Hell ay because ito ay isang alegorya lamang at hindi talagang impiyerno at para it's easier for the listeners to understand the theme.
Ang Gehenna po ay hindi Hell kundi ito ay isang representasyon lamang ng isang realidad. At kung anong klaseng realidad ito ay nai-post ko na ng una.
Sa ngaun ay maganda na daw po magbakasyon sa Gehenna kung saan ninyo matutunghayan ang parang magkadikit na "bosom" ni Abraham. Just imagine that you're with Indiana Jones and feel the excitement.
WHAT A WONDERFUL HELL IT WAS
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Post by Always on Feb 26, 2009 13:09:24 GMT 10
Teka teka Always, lalo akong nalito wahhhhhhhhhhh bago ka pumunta kay Lazarus, ilan ba to, may Lazarus na binuhay din, balik sa hell. kse ang hell gehena nga eh yung second death pero may sheol nga at hades na hell din, so may hell na pero wala pa yung second death isa pa wala nang noun noun di ba sabi nga ni ate linsi yung kwento ni jonah parang pedeng parable dahil gawa nung whale pero hindi din, kaya ano ba talaga mga kuya Kapag namatay ang isang tao na masama ay hindi ito tumutuloy agad sa impierno para maparusahan kundi hinihintay niya ang Judgment Day para maparusahan. Diba masyado naman yatang illogical if ang taong nasa impierno at dumadanas na nang eternal torment ay biglang dumating na ang JD ay saka palang doon hahatulan ng Diyos? Hindi pwedeng mauna ang parusa bago hatol then parusa ulet - that is not God's Justice. that is double jeopardy hahahaha joke lang poh.
Anyway, when a person dies, he goes into deep sleep, or at rest or in stasis until re-awaken or resurrected on Judgment Day.
About Lazarus, I'll explain that later ...
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