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Post by Always on Mar 25, 2009 12:44:57 GMT 10
Ang tagal meng naghintay
May mga Bible studies na they equate Abraham's Bosom to paradise o heaven at ang upper compartment ay for the righteous so ang tanong eh paano nagkaroon ngaun ng paradise sa Sheol o Impierno?
Maghihintay po ulet
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Post by bert on Mar 26, 2009 10:19:44 GMT 10
Again i repeat what i posted. About your first question, according to our bible study as i already answered, when unbelievers die they go at once to Hades which is the abode of the wicked dead. Before Christ, the righteous and the wicked went to sheol which had two compartments seperated by impassable gulf stated in Luke 16:22-31, Genesis 37:35. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol is translated as hell and the grave. In the New Testament, the lowest part of sheol is called in Greek hades. The word in Hebrew for the final state of perdition or lake of fire wasgehenna translated as hell in Mark 9:43 NASB. The wicked donot go to their final perdition until after the last judgment when they are cast in the lake of fire. Hell therefore depends upon which term we use. Maybe you can see that terms are used in different ways. There is no Abraham's Bosom now. There is Abraham's Bosom during the time of Jesus and since he took away all the righteous from there and brought them to heaven now. Sheol has two compartments. One is Abraham's Bosom during the time of Christ and the other the abode of the wicked seperated by the impassable gulf and i posted the bible verse. The word paradise now is refered to as heaven. The word paradise before is refered to as Abraham's Bosom. Please read the verses i posted because the terms used has changed meaning now after the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Post by Always on Mar 30, 2009 13:46:42 GMT 10
Liberte Said: "About your first question, according to our bible study as i already answered, when unbelievers die they go at once to Hades which is the abode of the wicked dead. Before Christ, the righteous and the wicked went to sheol which had two compartments seperated by impassable gulf stated in Luke 16:22-31, Genesis 37:35." Mine:
I know that you answered my querry but you did not actually justify your answer in any way that such coherence to the word of God is just not there. The Word of God does not change to the whim of the user. And when asked about certain phrases or specific words, some people will just explain them away or re-interpret them making them void of any validity. God's words does not change with time just like He does not change or govern by it(time.)
What I'm trying to say here is the difference between translation and interpretation - translations are unchanged in their meanings from the original manuscript; whereas interpretations are perceptions of what the original manuscript meant. Thus, an interpreter 's perception can easily alter the original translation of the words or phrases.
When unbelievers die, they do not go at "once" (as you say) to Hades for the simple reason that in Revelation 20:13, unbelievers who died at sea didn't go directly to Hades but were still in the sea.
You said: "There is no Abraham's Bosom now. There is Abraham's Bosom during the time of Jesus and since he took away all the righteous from there and brought them to heaven now.
... The word paradise before is refered to as Abraham's Bosom."
First, you did not cite any verse to support your interpretation that Jesus went specifically to the upper compartment of Hell and Abraham's Bosom is in it. Take a look at today's corporate world, say, an Accounting Department, it has many divisions; Payroll Division, Payable Division, Receivable Division et al. And whatever divisions a department is made of, it is still that said division. So if Abraham's Bosom became paradise or heaven after it was taken up by Jesus, how can you justify the morality that a division of Hell can be a paradise or Heaven?
Besides, how can Hell have a paradise(Abraham's Bosom) in it? Are you going to reason out again on how the words are being used? Again, translation is different from interpretation. I think I know the answer of what led you to believe that the upper compartment of Hell is Abraham's Bosom--you Bible Study as a whole had been tricked by your misconception of the "impassable gulf".
Yes it is, you always think that the impassable gulf and the bosom are in their literal sense; because if they were, then, inconsistencies arose and harder to justify. The reason as to why you will have a hard time reconciling the matter becuase you tried to believe that the parable is a literal interpretation rather than a metaphoric translation.
As I have previously stated, the lives of the Rich Man and Lazarus are tendencies of what will happen to us during our probationary period in our lives. But if we waste our time in pleasing ourselves just like the Rich Man in the parable, we cut our own selves off from everlasting life. No second chances will be granted to the unbelievers and because of their own choice of separation, the unbelievers 'created and fixed' an impassable gulf or boundary between them and God.
And as I also mentioned beforehand, Christ showed that time is coming when position of two instances (Rich & Poor) will be reversed. Those who are poor in today's world of materialism and yet believe in God evn though sufferring, will one day be exalted above those who have all the materials in the world and yet they do not have God in them.
Because this is Jesus' promise:
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thess. 4:15-17
Going back from the top, how can you say the Abraham's Bosom is part of Hell or its upper compartment if you will a hard time reconciling it with Luk 16:22 "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, " & in Luk 16:23 "[/b]and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. [/i]" The underlined phrase states that Lazarus was carried (lifted) by angels to Abraham's side. Angels mentioned here were the Angels of God and not the Fallen Ones; so how could the Angels of the Lord be in the Lower Hell and passed the Impassable Gulf and then bring Lazarus to the Upper Hell or the Abraham's Bosom? There are no other verses which support that Angels of God can roam or come out of Hell. Hmmmn [/color][/b]
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Post by bert on Mar 31, 2009 15:00:48 GMT 10
in Luke 16:22-31, Genesis 37:35." Mine:
I know that you answered my querry but you did not actually justify your answer in any way that such coherence to the word of God is just not there. The Word of God does not change to the whim of the user. And when asked about certain phrases or specific words, some people will just explain them away or re-interpret them making them void of any validity. God's words does not change with time just like He does not change or govern by it(time.)
What I'm trying to say here is the difference between translation and interpretation - translations are unchanged in their meanings from the original manuscript; whereas interpretations are perceptions of what the original manuscript meant. Thus, an interpreter 's perception can easily alter the original translation of the words or phrases.
Hello Always, much better if you present what is in your mind and i will try to answer. I have answered already. If it is not clear to you then maybe others can help.
Regarding terms hell has many terms i already post it. Like angel of the Lord also, sometimes the bible use angel but when you read it, it is God who visits. That's why i say it depends upon the terms you use.
The final perdition is the lake of fire that i agree is not yet existing but the term hell has been there since the time of Christ.There are verses i posted.
When unbelievers die, they do not go at "once" (as you say) to Hades for the simple reason that in Revelation 20:13, unbelievers who died at sea didn't go directly to Hades but were still in the sea.
The dead donot directly go to Hades when you think of the lake of fire and when you use hades as term because they wait for judgment that i agree with you.
You said: "There is no Abraham's Bosom now. There is Abraham's Bosom during the time of Jesus and since he took away all the righteous from there and brought them to heaven now.
... The word paradise before is refered to as Abraham's Bosom."
First, you did not cite any verse to support your interpretation that Jesus went specifically to the upper compartment of Hell and Abraham's Bosom is in it.
I gave verses in my past replies. You can check it that's why i said i answered it already.
Take a look at today's corporate world, say, an Accounting Department, it has many divisions; Payroll Division, Payable Division, Receivable Division et al. And whatever divisions a department is made of, it is still that said division. So if Abraham's Bosom became paradise or heaven after it was taken up by Jesus, how can you justify the morality that a division of Hell can be a paradise or Heaven?
About your first question, according to our bible study as i already answered, when unbelievers die they go at once to Hades which is the abode of the wicked dead. Before Christ, the righteous and the wicked went to sheol which had two compartments seperated by impassable gulf stated in Luke 16:22-31, Genesis 37:35.
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol is translated as hell and the grave. In the New Testament, the lowest part of sheol is called in Greek hades.
Besides, how can Hell have a paradise(Abraham's Bosom) in it? Are you going to reason out again on how the words are being used? Again, translation is different from interpretation. I think I know the answer of what led you to believe that the upper compartment of Hell is Abraham's Bosom--you Bible Study as a whole had been tricked by your misconception of the "impassable gulf".
I hope others can help us about this because it is clearly stated in Luke 16:22-31
when unbelievers die they go at once to Hades which is the abode of the wicked dead. Before Christ, the righteous and the wicked went to sheol which had two compartments seperated by impassable gulf stated in Luke 16:22-31, Genesis 37:35. that's why i also said that this is not a parable because it is literally true even at the time of Jesus.
Yes it is, you always think that the impassable gulf and the bosom are in their literal sense; because if they were, then, inconsistencies arose and harder to justify. The reason as to why you will have a hard time reconciling the matter becuase you tried to believe that the parable is a literal interpretation rather than a metaphoric translation.
Jesus went down three days to free the righteous i also stated the verse in my answers.
As I have previously stated, the lives of the Rich Man and Lazarus are tendencies of what will happen to us during our probationary period in our lives. But if we waste our time in pleasing ourselves just like the Rich Man in the parable, we cut our own selves off from everlasting life. No second chances will be granted to the unbelievers and because of their own choice of separation, the unbelievers 'created and fixed' an impassable gulf or boundary between them and God.
And as I also mentioned beforehand, Christ showed that time is coming when position of two instances (Rich & Poor) will be reversed. Those who are poor in today's world of materialism and yet believe in God evn though sufferring, will one day be exalted above those who have all the materials in the world and yet they do not have God in them.
Because this is Jesus' promise:
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. - 1 Thess. 4:15-17
Going back from the top, how can you say the Abraham's Bosom is part of Hell or its upper compartment if you will a hard time reconciling it with Luk 16:22 "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, " & in Luk 16:23 "[/b]and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. [/i]" The underlined phrase states that Lazarus was carried (lifted) by angels to Abraham's side. Angels mentioned here were the Angels of God and not the Fallen Ones; so how could the Angels of the Lord be in the Lower Hell and passed the Impassable Gulf and then bring Lazarus to the Upper Hell or the Abraham's Bosom? There are no other verses which support that Angels of God can roam or come out of Hell. Hmmmn Yes, but angels are cast down to their place as fallen angels and there are instances that others can roam around others are not-
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. heavenly realms or high places means places where fallen angels take hold.
[/color][/b][/quote] Hope others can help us.
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Post by Always on Mar 31, 2009 16:50:24 GMT 10
Liberte said: "About your first question, according to our bible study as i already answered, when unbelievers die they go at once to Hades which is the abode of the wicked dead. Sheol has two compartments. One is Abraham's Bosom during the time of Christ and the other the abode of the wicked seperated by the impassable gulf and i posted the bible verse. The word paradise now is refered to as heaven. The word paradise before is refered to as Abraham's Bosom. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol is translated as hell and the grave. In the New Testament, the lowest part of sheol is called in Greek hades." Mine:
Let me re-arrange your statement in a way that everything will be clearer.During Christ's time & before He arrived, Sheol had two compartments:- 1. Abraham's Bosom
- 2. The abode of the wicked.
Since you also said that the word paradise before had been referred to as Abraham's Bosom; and Hade is the abode of the wicked, therefore during and before Christ's time, the two compartments Sheol had were as follow:- 1. Paradise (Abraham's Bosom)
- 2. Hades (Abode of the wicked)
Come to understand now that I am basing the above analysis coming from your own Bible study and what you have posted here so far. Thus, you won't be able to deny about reasoning as to any form of usage here because it is not in any way in contrast to what you believe and how you formed your statement. It is better this way in order for me to dissect those beliefs of yours.
Later
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Post by linsi on Mar 31, 2009 22:30:34 GMT 10
hehehe mukhang nagkaproblema lang yata sa syntax? sa tingin ko pwedeng i reconsile yan
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Post by rafael on Apr 1, 2009 4:57:57 GMT 10
That's the trouble. Everyone hear speaks of things which they never see and experience. One talks about his bible study the other talks about his own logic without a bible study. Where is everything heading for? Nowhere.
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Post by Always on Apr 1, 2009 14:43:58 GMT 10
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Post by Always on Apr 3, 2009 0:16:32 GMT 10
"The dead donot directly go to Hades when you think of the lake of fire ..." The thing is, I am not talking about the Lake of Fire in the first place for the simple reason that when I made my reply to your post stating about unbelievers of what will happen to them when they die, I merely brought it forward that your interpretation is not necessarily coherent with the verse I cited.
"About your first question, according to our bible study as i already answered, when unbelievers die they go at once to Hades which is the abode of the wicked dead. " Thus, Revelation 20:13 is an attestment to the contrary because even before the Lake of Fire, lots of unbelievers who died at sea, stayed at sea, which means only one thing--unbelievers who die do not go at once to Hades. If it is not clear to you yet then maybe others outside your bible study can help on this.
To make it simple, how can you justify your interpretation to be true if Revelation 20:13 says otherwise
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Post by leanne. on Apr 3, 2009 16:23:00 GMT 10
Thus, Revelation 20:13 is an attestment to the contrary because even before the Lake of Fire, lots of unbelievers who died at sea, stayed at sea, which means only one thing--unbelievers who die do not go at once to Hades. If it is not clear to you yet then maybe others outside your bible study can help on this.
To make it simple, how can you justify your interpretation to be true if Revelation 20:13 says otherwise
Makasali nga Always ang alam ko dyan sa Rev. 20:13 yan yung mga taong i ja-judge relate sa Rapture- basa mo ang about Rapture. Unang tatayo mga righteous na mga patay at buhay, second na yung mga wicked- syempre bubuhayin ng Lord lahat yung katawan para sa judgment- Ang alam ko pinag uusapan dito ay yung soul o kaluluwa pagkatapos mamatay- ngeeee ;D Ano bang pinag uusapan patay na katawan o kaluluwa ng patay . Hindi talaga kayo mag kakaintindihan kaya pala nalilito na rin ako waaaaaaahhh Revelations 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their works. Rapture kaya yan.
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Post by leanne. on Apr 3, 2009 16:28:26 GMT 10
Dapat yata mag bible study tayo dito umpisahan umpisahan
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Post by delta on Apr 4, 2009 15:11:03 GMT 10
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Post by linsi on Apr 4, 2009 21:26:43 GMT 10
[ Unang tatayo mga righteous na mga patay at buhay, second na yung mga wicked- syempre bubuhayin ng Lord lahat yung katawan para sa judgment- 1Corinthians 15:52 NIV in a moment, faster than an eye can blink, at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will be raised never to decay, and we will be changed.
i think eto yung sinasabi mo leanne?
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Post by linsi on Apr 4, 2009 21:40:29 GMT 10
Ok- i side by side natin to---
Revelations 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their works.
1Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, faster than an eye can blink, at the sound of the last trumpet. Indeed, that trumpet will sound, and then the dead will be raised never to decay, and we will be changed.
I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Eto yung Rapture ?
And then susunod naman yung mga unbelievers will rise- and then judgment na-
Anyone migs? jiro, supremo asan na ikaw join tayo sa discussions nila always?
Balik hades and hell
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Post by leanne. on Apr 6, 2009 9:14:44 GMT 10
Parang ganun na nga lahat ng patay na na kay Jesus bubuhayin pati yung mga patay na nasa dagat, pati yung mga na cremate na? kasabay ng mga buhay pa kay Christ ma ra rapture magkakasama, tas bandang huli yun namang mga wicked bubuhayin din kasama nung mga buhay na wicked magkakasama din i ja judge pagkatapos dun na papasok yung lake of fire kc judgment na magkaka lake of fire na. Teka ano ba ang meaning ng Hades? basa muna ako. Oist nasaan na kayo?
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Post by Always on Apr 6, 2009 16:54:42 GMT 10
"Makasali nga Always ang alam ko dyan sa Rev. 20:13 yan yung mga taong i ja-judge relate sa Rapture- basa mo ang about Rapture. Unang tatayo mga righteous na mga patay at buhay, second na yung mga wicked- syempre bubuhayin ng Lord lahat yung katawan para sa judgment- Ang alam ko pinag uusapan dito ay yung soul o kaluluwa pagkatapos mamatay- ngeeee ;D Ano bang pinag uusapan patay na katawan o kaluluwa ng patay . Hindi talaga kayo mag kakaintindihan kaya pala nalilito na rin ako waaaaaaahhh Revelations 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their works. Rapture kaya yan. " Hindi po yan ang Rapture kasi nauna na po ito bago pa isuka ng dagat ang mga patay na unbelievers para husgahan sa kanilang kasamaan. Ang rapture po eh yun naksaulat sa unang libro ng Tesalonika.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, [fn] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have "fallen asleep". 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Kasama din po jan iyong "first ressurection" na kasi sila ang mga natutulog muna ay gigisingin para makasama ni Jesus Christ before ang mga buhay na nanalig sa Diyos dahil hindi sila naniwala sa mga kasinungalingan ng Dyablo at nang kanyang mga kampon. At pagkatapos ng magising ang mga faithfuls(believers) ay saka ira-rapture ni Kristo ang mga buhay na Kanyang nadatnan para magkita-kitz sila ng mga ginising na mga nag-fallen asleep para mag-reign ng 1000 years na kasama ang Diyos.
Btw, napansin ba ninyo na mismong si Kristo ang nagsabi sa 1Th 4:15 na ang mga believers na mga namatay ay nangadsi-tulog(fallen asleep) at ito ay kanyang gigising bago ang mga buhay na nadatnan. So, death is a sleep!
Ngaun, if ito ba ay pre-/mid-/ o post-tribulation eh nasa sa inyong pananalig na po iyan but bago ma-cite ang Revelation 20:13 ay tingnan naman ninyo ang sumusunod na verses.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Tulad sa Unang Tesalonika ang mga unang bubuhayin sa first ressurection ay iyon lamang mga believers o ang mga taong nanalig at sumunod sa mga pag-uutos ng Diyos. Samantala ang mga unfaithfuls naman ay tuloy pa din sila sa kanilang pag-tulog hanggang sa sumapit ang Judgment Day.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead(unbelievers) did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Kaya ang mga unbelievers(unfaithfuls) na mga namatay na ay hindi talaga dumidiretso sa Hades o lower compartment of Sheol o sa kalalimang impiyerno(from the Latin word [iInfernus[/i]) na lang nga para hindi na tau ma-confuse sa paggamit dahil nga Revelation 20:13 ang nagpatunay na meron mga masasamang tao na namatay sa dagat(hindi dumediretso sa Hades) at ang mga ito ay isusuka lang din para mahusgahan on JD. PEACE!!! [/color][/b]
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Post by bert on Apr 7, 2009 11:03:41 GMT 10
[Makasali nga Always ang alam ko dyan sa Rev. 20:13 yan yung mga taong i ja-judge relate sa Rapture- basa mo ang about Rapture. Unang tatayo mga righteous na mga patay at buhay, second na yung mga wicked- syempre bubuhayin ng Lord lahat yung katawan para sa judgment- Ang alam ko pinag uusapan dito ay yung soul o kaluluwa pagkatapos mamatay- ngeeee ;D Ano bang pinag uusapan patay na katawan o kaluluwa ng patay . Hindi talaga kayo mag kakaintindihan kaya pala nalilito na rin ako waaaaaaahhh Revelations 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their works. Rapture kaya yan. Hello Leanne, yes i am talking about the souls of dead people. On judgment day , God will raise those who are in Christ together with the living people also in Christ and will be caught up meeting Jesus. So even the dead in the sea, or eveywhere will raise to be judged later on as written in the verses you gave, Thanks for all participating in this topic.
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Post by bert on Apr 7, 2009 11:06:57 GMT 10
Kaya ang mga unbelievers(unfaithfuls) na mga namatay na ay hindi talaga dumidiretso sa Hades o lower compartment of Sheol o sa kalalimang impiyerno(from the Latin word [iInfernus [/i]) na lang nga para hindi na tau ma-confuse sa paggamit dahil nga Revelation 20:13 ang nagpatunay na meron mga masasamang tao na namatay sa dagat(hindi dumediretso sa Hades) at ang mga ito ay isusuka lang din para mahusgahan on JD. PEACE!!! [/color][/b] [/quote] Sorry hindi po ganoon ang nangyayari sa mga kaluluwa ng mga namatay sa dagat, but I respect your interpretation as your own. Dahil nakasaad sa mga verses ang sinabi ko. Hindi pwedeng ang mga kaluluwa ay nasa dagat lang. Pero Ok na yun iginagalang ko ang interpretation. Kaya lang hindi ko po ito matatanggap . Hawig po yan sa mga doktrina ng JW. Peace po.
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Post by Always on Apr 7, 2009 13:59:42 GMT 10
Sir Liberte o Sir Bert: "Hello Leanne, yes i am talking about the souls of dead people. On judgment day , God will raise those who are in Christ together with the living people also in Christ and will be caught up meeting Jesus. So even the dead in the sea, or eveywhere will raise to be judged later on as written in the verses you gave, ..."
Hayan kayo na poh ang nagsabi niyan ha Dahil either before or on Judgment Day ay meron mga unbelievers na namatay sa dagat na hindi dumiretso sa Hades na inyong tinukoy. Kasi nga, hindi kasali ang mga masasama sa Unang Resureksiyon at sa Rapture at ito ay iniwan sa kanilang pagtulog na isa pang libong taon hanggang ito ay isukang muli para mahusgahan.
--------------- Sir Liberte o Sir Bert: "Sorry hindi po ganoon ang nangyayari sa mga kaluluwa ng mga namatay sa dagat, but I respect your interpretation as your own. Dahil nakasaad sa mga verses ang sinabi ko. Hindi pwedeng ang mga kaluluwa ay nasa dagat lang. Pero Ok na yun iginagalang ko ang interpretation. Kaya lang hindi ko po ito matatanggap . Hawig po yan sa mga doktrina ng JW. Peace po." HUH? May contradiction po yata ang mga sinusulat ninyo dahil sa itaas ay sinabi ninyo na everywhere including the ones at the sea will be raised to be judge on JD so if hindi ganun ang nangyayari tulad sa sinabi mong bago ay paano mo naman maitutuwid kung ano ang isusuka ng dagat na mga namatay na masasama kung hindi ganun nga - very contradicting po iyan
Pangalawa, kung hindi mo po matanggap ang aking explinasyon ay para mo na din sinabing hindi mo kayang tanggapin ang nakasulat sa Revelation 20:13. Mali po ang interpretasyon ninyo noong una pa na ang mga unbelievers kapag namatay ay dumidiretso kaagad sa Hades.
Exhibit 1:
"About your first question, according to our bible study as i already answered, when unbelievers die they go at once to Hadeswhich is the abode of the wicked dead." Hayan, maliwanag pa poh sa araw na sinulat ninyong sa Hades lang tumutuloy ang mga masasamang namatay; at dito ko binase ang aking mga refutals at rebuttals by presenting the verse in the Book of Revelation na hindi lahat ng masasamang namatay ay nasa Hades.
'Wag po sana kayo magtampo kasi minsan reasons alone based on interpreation is not enough to be a defensive tool without proper logic put into it kaya minsan kapag reasons lang ang ating armas mas madali tayong mabuwag sa ating paniniwala ng mga skeptics. [/b] ------------- Sir Liberte o Sir Bert: "Hindi pwedeng ang mga kaluluwa ay nasa dagat lang."
Mine: Hind ko naman poh sinabing nasa dagat lang eh; pakibasa na lang po ulet ang mga nauna meng sinulat.
----------- Sir Liberte o Sir Bert: "Hawig po yan sa mga doktrina ng JW." Mine: Kaya nyo lang po nasasabi na hawig ang mga sinusulat ko sa doktrina ng mga Jehovah's Witnesses ay dahil sa artikulong ginamit ninyo about the Valley of Hinnom o Gehenna which was interpreted as Hell in that said article by Pastor Max Solbrekken (rfer to p.2 ). Sir Liberte, do you still remember that you agreed on his article?
Reply #s 13 & 17 on p2; dated Feb 21 & 23, 2009 respectively:
Exhibit 2[/color][/b] "The article which i agree said. I wish to speak tonight on the subject entitled "THE PLACE CALLED HELL". " Exhibit 3:"he word that Jesus Christ used here for HELL, is the word Gehenna. This is a Greek word that means 'the place of departed spirits'. "
But then on March 25th, of p3, you posted that Gehenna was the Lake of Fire and as Hell in the Book of Mark.
Exhibit 4:"The word in Hebrew for the final state of perdition or lake of fire was gehenna translated as hell in Mark 9:43 NASB." Contradicting na naman po kayo dito kasi nga ang Hell ay itatapon po sa Lake of Fire at iyan po ang nakasulat sa Revelation 20:14. Kaya if naniniwala kayo na ang Gehenna as Hell sa article ni Pastor Solbrekken at pagkatapos ay meron kayong interpretation na Gehenna as the Lake of Fire; hindi na po tamang sabihin natin na ang Gehenna ay itatapon sa Gehenna. Di poh ba?
Basahin natin muli ang Book of Mark 9:43 at since NASB version ang ginamit ninyo ay ito ang atin ipo-post dito.
Mar 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Napansin po ba ninyo ang comma between 'hell, into'? Ang hebrew word po na tinukoy jan ay ang salitang Haythah which means "became" dahil pinangunahan ito ng katagang to or into. Kaya dalawa(2) po ang kahulugan niyon dahil sa comma ang ginamit na paghihiwalay ng mga tinutukoy - First is into Hell; then next, into the unquenchable(eternal) fire.
Dalawa pong klase ng mga lugar ang tinukoy sa nasabing verse dahil ang isa ay into Hell at ang pangalawa ay into the Eternal Fire o Lake of Fire at hindi po pwedeng magkaparehas o magkatugma tulad ng inyong interpretasyon dahil magkaiba dn ang kani-kanilang estado.
JW?
'Di po doktrina iyan ng mga JW kundi ng isang Ethical Theist at isa pa po ay iba ang natutunan ko sa Olam Haba/Olam Hazek kumpara sa mga Jehovahs. At bago po ako magtapos dito sa post ko eh gusto ko pong malaman kung baket may paradise sa Hell.
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Post by Always on Apr 9, 2009 12:17:36 GMT 10
Sir Liberte, gusto ko po lang naman malaman ang panig ninyo kung baket nga meron Paradise sa Hell kasi malay nyo one of these days eh may magtanong ng mga bata sa bible studies ninyo ang tungkol d2 ... ay para at least ready din kayo dipohba sa pagsagot.
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Post by mrExdobal on Apr 10, 2009 13:30:37 GMT 10
He He He mukhang masalimuot ang usapan. Unang una hindi naniniwala si Mr Bert na parabola lamang yan, umpisa pa lang kaya siguro nagtataka si Always kung bakit may Paradise sa Hell kahit ulit ulitin yung berso . Mahirap yan Pero ok ang usapan.
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Post by Always on Apr 10, 2009 19:45:23 GMT 10
He He He mukhang masalimuot ang usapan. Unang una hindi naniniwala si Mr Bert na parabola lamang yan, umpisa pa lang kaya siguro nagtataka si Always kung bakit may Paradise sa Hell kahit ulit ulitin yung berso . Mahirap yan Pero ok ang usapan.
Sometimes we must dwell outside the box in order to have the knowledge given to us by God to be in correct usage and not go to waste. This is not to say that Liberte and his congregation are antiquated in their ideals for the simple reason that there is something missing. Take note that I didn't specify faith but ideals, which by the way are two distinctive terms in dealing with the scriptures. But by having both, a person who is well equipped with these is tantamount that his faith is hard to fall into disarray.
A good example of ideals is having the knowledge physics, history, sociology, advance economics, chemistry etal. and how a person is going to interpolate it with the belief in God. Liberte has been mistaken that when I say parable, it does not necessarily mean that certain situation just like the place called hell does not exist but only in its state. Okay, you may have lost there in understanding my reasons but the logic is, it is still there. An example is Betty La Fea or the Books of Jose Rizal ...
Yes? Well both of them are categorized as fictions (as an analogy to being a parable) as the character of Bea in the teleserye; but it is bound to be true in real life. Just take a look at all the lady executives around us, most of the times, they are not pretty-good looking but they are all smart in a way that we admire them. But it happens, the teleserye is in its own state and not just a place for us to perceive because as soon as our consciousness dictates to us the inevitable that such occurence is bound to happen in nature. I hope you're getting it already of what I'm trying to say here .
Neway, verse alone cannot satisfy an inquiring mind as to why there is paradise in hell. One must be armed with logic in order to substantiate such reason. Atheists do not believed in the theory of the Big-Bang before; and since it is universally accepted, they tend to formulate another ideals in order to denounce its closeness in our faith in God.
There is an old custom that science disproves the Bible; but not now, modern science is a tool in getting to the understand science of God. I am pretty sure that it will not be in our own lifetime, soon, God's science(supernaturalism) will be proven to be true by the progression of our scientific reality.
And so instead, let me rephrase my querry: What do you think is God's purpose in putting a paradise within Hell itself?
Perhaps you can help MrBaldoremix :-]
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Post by mrExdobal on Apr 10, 2009 21:24:05 GMT 10
Sometimes we must dwell outside the box in order to have the knowledge given to us by God to be in correct usage and not go to waste. This is not to say that Liberte and his congregation are antiquated in their ideals for the simple reason that there is something missing. Take note that I didn't specify faith but ideals, which by the way are two distinctive terms in dealing with the scriptures. But by having both, a person who is well equipped with these is tantamount that his faith is hard to fall into disarray.
Ang mahirap minsan hindi alam ng isang tao na nasa isa rin siyang kahon mas malaki nga lang o di kaya akala niya ay mas malaki kesa sa dun sa isang nasa kahon din.
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Post by mrExdobal on Apr 10, 2009 21:31:44 GMT 10
A good example of ideals is having the knowledge physics, history, sociology, advance economics, chemistry etal. and how a person is going to interpolate it with the belief in God. Liberte has been mistaken that when I say parable, it does not necessarily mean that certain situation just like the place called hell does not exist but only in its state. Okay, you may have lost there in understanding my reasons but the logic is, it is still there. An example is Betty La Fea or the Books of Jose Rizal ...
[/b][/quote] Yan ang isa pang mahirap, may mga tao na akala nila mataas na ang hawak hawak nilang kaalaman kasama ang agham at lohika, Kung babanggitin natin si Nicodemus Mr Always isa siya sa pinaka mahusay at paham na guro sa Israel pero hindi niya maintindihan ang payak na kahulugan ng kaligtasan- hindi kaya pumapatak ka sa ganito? Tanong lang
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Post by mrExdobal on Apr 10, 2009 21:38:50 GMT 10
Neway, verse alone cannot satisfy an inquiring mind as to why there is paradise in hell. One must be armed with logic in order to substantiate such reason. Atheists do not believed in the theory of the Big-Bang before; and since it is universally accepted, they tend to formulate another ideals in order to denounce its closeness in our faith in God.
Tama pareho tayo ng palagay at wala akong kinakampihan dito pero nabasa ko ang mga berso na ibinigay ni Mr bert, hindi lang iisa kundi marami din. Kung hindi mo matanggap na yun ay parabola at hindi mo maabot sa isip mo na ang disenyo ay dalawang lugar na may bangin na hindi pwedeng tawiran ayon sa berso, isa ay impiyerno at isa ay paraiso- nasa sa yo yun. May mga desisyon at disenyo na ang Diyos lang ang may gawa. Umaayon din ako sa yo na ang mga Ateyista ay ganun at maaaring lahat ng tao ay gaya nila kasama ikaw at ako- at baka sakaling maisip natin na ang berso sa Lucas ay pwedeng tanggapin dahil nakasulat yon.
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Post by mrExdobal on Apr 10, 2009 21:54:41 GMT 10
There is an old custom that science disproves the Bible; but not now, modern science is a tool in getting to the understand science of God. I am pretty sure that it will not be in our own lifetime, soon, God's science(supernaturalism) will be proven to be true by the progression of our scientific reality.
And so instead, let me rephrase my querry: What do you think is God's purpose in putting a paradise within Hell itself?
Perhaps you can help MrBaldoremix :-]
[/b][/quote] Hindi ako eksperto sa ganito, kaya lamang iba ang kalagayan nung wala pa si Kristo,iba rin nung nandito na si Kristo at iba rin ang kalagayan sa pagbabalik niya. Kung iisipin na ang kaligtasan ay si Kristo lamang sa ngalan ng Kristyanismo. Paanong nailigtas ang mga propheta noong unang panahon, yung mga namatay ng wala pa si Kristo? Samantalang ang sabi ay maliligtas lamang kung tatanggapin si Kristo at maniniwala kay Kristo, isipin natin na iba ang panahon nina Solomon at David, at paano sila naligtas samantalang wala pa si Kristo? Ganun din ang Impiyerno na sinasabi mo, para sa yo wala pa ngayon ito. Hindi ba at magkapareho ang elemento ng tanong? Paano naligtas ang magnanakaw na katabi ni Kristo sa panahon niya? HIndi ba sinabi ni Mr Bert na may impiyerno na nung panahon ni Kristo? HIndi ba pareho din ang elemento ng tanong? At paano maliligtas ang mga katulad natin sa panahong iniwan tayo dahil umakyat sa langit si Kristo at nag aantay na lang tayo sa pagbabalik Niya? Tiyak may disenyo ang Diyos kung paano. Kaya nga nasabi mong wala pang impiyerno ngayon, kaya nga sinabi ni Mr Bert na mayroon na at kaya yung iba ay may iba ibang pagkaintindi o pagka unawa- Kung sasabihin mo na wala pa ang impiyerno ngayon maaaring sabihin nang ibang pilosopo na samakatwid wala pa ring langit ngayon-
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Post by Always on Apr 10, 2009 22:35:57 GMT 10
MrExDobal: "Hindi ako eksperto sa ganito, kaya lamang iba ang kalagayan nung wala pa si Kristo,iba rin nung nandito na si Kristo at iba rin ang kalagayan sa pagbabalik niya. Kung iisipin na ang kaligtasan ay si Kristo lamang sa ngalan ng Kristyanismo. Paanong nailigtas ang mga propheta noong unang panahon, yung mga namatay ng wala pa si Kristo? Samantalang ang sabi ay maliligtas lamang kung tatanggapin si Kristo at maniniwala kay Kristo, isipin natin na iba ang panahon nina Solomon at David, at paano sila naligtas samantalang wala pa si Kristo? Ganun din ang Impiyerno na sinasabi mo, para sa yo wala pa ngayon ito. Hindi ba at magkapareho ang elemento ng tanong?" Hindi naman natin kelangan maging eksperto kundi kailangan ay at least meron tayong konting kaalaman lamang na maaring ibagay sa lohica kung ito man ay tutugma. Ang elementong sinasabi mo ay walang ibang kundi ang aking tinutukoy na terminong "state" o estado ng isang bagay tulad na din ng impierno na oo ito ay isang lugar ngunit ang consciousness natin ay nagsasabi na ito ay isang estado.
Ang turo tungkol sa Olam Haba ay may relasyon sa tinatawag na eternal life at ito ay depende sa anong estado o kung ito ba ay Y'mot Hamashiah na sa mga araw ng Messiah.
Pero kung ang mga tanong mo ang ating pag-uusapan if madaming daan para mailigtas maliban kay Kristo ay mababasa mo lahat ang kasagutan sa Libro ng Jeremiah. But the foundation of my answer to you right now is basing solely to the state of the matter itself as to whether a place can equate to the own stage of its meta/physical being.
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Post by Always on Apr 10, 2009 22:56:29 GMT 10
MrExDobal: "Tama pareho tayo ng palagay at wala akong kinakampihan dito pero nabasa ko ang mga berso na ibinigay ni Mr bert, hindi lang iisa kundi marami din. Kung hindi mo matanggap na yun ay parabola at hindi mo maabot sa isip mo na ang disenyo ay dalawang lugar na may bangin na hindi pwedeng tawiran ayon sa berso, isa ay impiyerno at isa ay paraiso- nasa sa yo yun.
May mga desisyon at disenyo na ang Diyos lang ang may gawa.
Umaayon din ako sa yo na ang mga Ateyista ay ganun at maaaring lahat ng tao ay gaya nila kasama ikaw at ako- at baka sakaling maisip natin na ang berso sa Lucas ay pwedeng tanggapin dahil nakasulat yon.
Una, kung binabasa mo lang lahat ang aking sagot ay malalaman mo na ako ang nagsasabi na ang mga bersikulo tungkol sa Mayaman at c Lazarus ay isang Parabola at hindi "literal" tulad ng sabi ni Liberte. Pangalawa, ito ay isang parabola dahil ito nga ay isang metaporo.
Kaya kapag nabasa mo na ay siguro ay maari mo na ding tanggapin na ang mga bersikulo ay ukol talaga sa isang parabola at hindi sa Literal na ehemplo dahil lamang sa paggamit ng 'proper' noun na aking din inixplained na sa mga naunang pahina.
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" ...hindi mo maabot sa isip mo na ang disenyo ay dalawang lugar na may bangin na hindi pwedeng tawiran ayon sa berso, isa ay impiyerno at isa ay paraiso- nasa sa yo yun."
Kung ito ay isang disenyo, paano mo matatawag ang isang paraiso kung ito ay nasa impiyerno pa din? Kaya if walang bersikulo sa Bibliya ang makakapagbigay ng dahilang kung baket may paraiso sa impiyerno ay hindi kaya isang lohica lamang na hindi makakaya ng rason ng Bibliya?
"May mga desisyon at disenyo na ang Diyos lang ang may gawa."
May mga gawaing desisyon ang Diyos na siya lang ang nakaka-alam nguni't meron siyang mga disenyo na sadya niyang gusto natin itong malaman. Tulad na lang ang paraiso sa Impiyerno at ito ay hindi lang dahil sa literal na interpretasyon o kwento ukol kay Lazarus kundi ito ay sa isang parabola kung ano ang estado ng tao mula sa Genesis hanggang sa Revelation o mula sa kapanganakan ng mundo hanggang sa paggunaw nito.
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Post by Always on Apr 10, 2009 23:00:20 GMT 10
" ...hindi mo maabot sa isip mo na ang disenyo ay dalawang lugar na may bangin na hindi pwedeng tawiran ayon sa berso, isa ay impiyerno at isa ay paraiso- nasa sa yo yun."
Kung ito ay isang disenyo, paano mo matatawag ang isang paraiso kung ito ay nasa impiyerno pa din? Kaya if walang bersikulo sa Bibliya ang makakapagbigay ng dahilang kung baket may paraiso sa impiyerno ay hindi kaya isang lohica lamang ang makakapagpaliwanag nito dahil nga sa hindi makakaya ng mga rason mula sa Bibliya?
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Post by Always on Apr 10, 2009 23:19:53 GMT 10
MrExDobal: "Kung sasabihin mo na wala pa ang impiyerno ngayon maaaring sabihin nang ibang pilosopo na samakatwid wala pa ring langit ngayon- Ang Impiyerno ay isang lugar na nasa kanyang sariling estado lamang dahil nga sa ito ay wala pa sa ating pisikalidad. Matutunghayan lang ito kung masama kang namatay o sa araw ng Judgment dahil ito ay magpapakita na para itapon sa Lake of Fire. Mukhang mahirap pa din ano?
Kunwari ang kaibigan mo may gf na nakilala sa internet at LDR ang relasyon nila at ito ay hindi mo pa nakikita pero lagi nang sinasabi sa iyo ng kaibigan mo na maganda siya, mabait at kung ano ano pa pero dahil nga sa kaibigan mo ay maniniwala ka kahit hindi mo pa ito nakikita. Dbah kaibigan mo eh? Alam mo na totoong may gf siya kahit ni minsan o kahit siya man ay hindi pa niya nakikita. Tanong ko: ano ang estado ng relasyon nila?
Eh ngayon, what if kung hindi ka naniniwala sa kanya na ganito, ganun? Ang tanong ko pa din sa iyo: Ano ang estado ng relasyon nila?
Ganyan din ang mga Kristiyano na naniniwalang meron impiyerno pero sa anong estado
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